We tend to measure technological change by the things that ship with a keynote - a new phone, a new model, a new headset. This week, Katie Ghidiu joins the show to argue for a different yardstick. As Associate Provost of Academic Innovation and Learning Resources at FLCC, a former library director, and someone who hiked the entire Pacific Crest Trail from the Mexican border to Canada, she has watched two very different worlds get completely rebuilt while almost nobody outside them noticed. Backpacking is the case study, and it is a startling one: a base pack weight that ran 50 to 75 pounds in the 1970s now comes in at 12 pounds. Water purification went from boiling to iodine tablets to a six-inch filter you screw onto a grocery-store water bottle. Paper maps and compass skills gave way to Far Out, a crowdsourced trail app where hikers leave real-time intel about snowpack and water sources for the people walking behind them. None of it made headlines. All of it changed who gets to attempt a trail like this.
Paul comes at the conversation as a self-described indoor person, which turns out to be the perfect vantage point - his questions about ankle support, trail authorities, and what exactly a tiny folding stove is force the details into the open. Dave, fresh off a two-week backpacking trip with Katie this past summer, brings the recently-humbled perspective of someone who hardly trained beforehand and got snapping hip syndrome by day two. The through-line Katie lands on in the final segment is the episode's real payload: most of this gear came from hikers tinkering in their garages, iterating, and slowly building a cottage industry, and the same grassroots pattern reshaped academic libraries into hubs of informal learning. The verdict is a challenge to the listener - go find the invisible technology evolution in your own field, because a new fabric or a better filter is a technology change even when it never touches an app store.
Key Topics
Crowdsourced intel is only as good as the judgment you bring to it. Far Out layers a social feed onto trail maps, so hikers post notes about washed-out bridges, snow conditions, and whether a stream is running ten liters a minute or down to a trickle. But Katie points out that a two-day-old water comment is nearly useless in a dry July out west, and Dave learned that the hard way trying to plan around stale data. The tool removes the guesswork about what is ahead; it does not remove the need to understand how the trail actually behaves.:
Weight savings compound, and that changes who can participate. The single biggest shift is not any one product but the way lighter gear cascades. Tents now use trekking poles for structure instead of carrying their own aluminum ones, Dyneema fabric brought a two-person tent down to 40 ounces, and sleeping quilts cut the useless insulation you were crushing under your body anyway. Lighter loads mean less stress on ankles and feet, which means trail runners replaced stiff leather boots, which means backpacks no longer need heavy frames - each change enabling the next.:
Satellite connectivity rewrote the emotional math of a long trail. Asked to name the biggest change of the past twenty years, Katie does not pick the water filter or the shoes - she picks the ability to communicate from the backcountry. A Garmin inReach clipped to a pack handles tracking, messaging, and an SOS button that routes to search and rescue, and Caltopo overlays carrier-by-carrier cell coverage so you can plan when you will next check in. Twenty years ago a thru-hike meant silence until the next town; now a months-long absence is something a family can live with.:
Libraries have been running the AI literacy playbook for decades under a different name. Katie opens the show with the hot take that the current scramble around AI literacy, AI fluency, and AI judgment is largely information literacy rebranded - and that librarians should stop being modest about it. FLCC is currently hiring an AI librarian, and the parallel to hiking is exact: the work inside academic libraries has been transformed almost entirely over twenty years, but from the outside it still reads as a quiet building full of books. Both domains prove that the deepest technological change is usually the kind nobody puts on a billboard.
Mentioned in the Episode
- Information Literacy
- The Rochester Provocations
- Photon Matrix
- Google is buying all of Spirit Airlines’ data
- Neuralink for Visual Prosthesis
- Pacific Crest Trail
- FarOut app
- Sawyer Squeeze
- Durston Tent
- Hoka Trail Running Shoes
- Crocs
- Sun Hoodie
- Senchi
- Coros Watch
- Gaia GPS
- Garmin inReach
- Trekking Poles
- Sleeping Quilts
- Sleeping Pad
- Ramen Bomb
- Small Stove
- Old Stove
- Cooking Pot
- Headlamps
- Battery Bank
- CalTopo
- Watch Duty
- CalFire
- PCT Subreddit
Transcript
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Dave Ghidiu All right, so we're not recording, so, uh, we can just say that Paul, earlier, you said... Before we start recording, you said that Jeff is the brains of this operation. Paul Engin No. No, I did not say that. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Paul Engin We know. Dave Ghidiu Katie, did, did, did you hear him say that? Paul Engin I, no. Dave Ghidiu Oh, her mic must not, must not be working. Katie Ghidiu Is this on? I don't think- Dave Ghidiu Oh, okay. Paul Engin Oh, okay. Katie Ghidiu I don't think it was working. Paul Engin Yeah. I plead the fifth. Welcome to The Immersive Lens, the podcast exploring technologies reshaping how we live, work, and learn. Dave Ghidiu From AI and virtual reality to creative media and design, we are diving into the tools and ideas shaping our connected world. Paul Engin My name is Paul Engen. Join us as we uncover the people and ideas driving the next wave of interactive experiences. Dave Ghidiu And I'm Dave Gadu. This is The Immersive Lens. Paul Engin Well, Dave. Dave Ghidiu Well, Paul. Paul Engin Well, that doesn't look like Jeff. We have Jeff here all the time. Dave Ghidiu Oh, Jeff has been upgraded. Paul Engin Jeff has been upgraded. Oh, take that. Dave Ghidiu We dumped Jeff and- Paul Engin Take that, Jeff. Dave Ghidiu Oh, yeah. Paul Engin Jeff isn't here, so, uh, do you wanna introduce our new guest? Dave Ghidiu We have with us a special guest. This is Katie Gadu, who is the associate provost of academic innovations and learning resources here at FLCC. Say hi, Katie. Paul Engin That's a- Katie Ghidiu Thanks for having me. Paul Engin That's a big, that's a big title. Katie Ghidiu I'm still learning it, so I have to think through it in my head every time. Paul Engin Um, well, welcome, Katie. I, uh, appreciate you coming here early in the morning, uh, before the classes begin. Uh- Katie Ghidiu Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Paul Engin Uh, so are you familiar with the format? We kind of go over some hot takes that are happening, and, uh, if you wanna... If you have a hot take, we'd love to hear it. If not, if you need some time to research- ... you can let us hear us, and then we can pivot to you, you let us know what you wanna do. Katie Ghidiu I have, I have heard, listened to the podcast before. Dave Ghidiu A little lensy. Katie Ghidiu I might qualify as a lensy. Paul Engin Oh, see? All right. Katie Ghidiu I'm not sure, but- Dave Ghidiu A little lensy in the house Katie Ghidiu ... I came, I came with a hot take. Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu Um, and so my background is I was a library director before coming here, and with all this talk of AI literacy that's going around, it's everywhere, AI literacy, AI fluency, AI judgment, I really think libraries have been doing this for decades, and we just called it information literacy. Paul Engin Oh. Katie Ghidiu And so we need to rebrand ourselves- Paul Engin Oh Katie Ghidiu ... better and hop on the bandwagon. Paul Engin I like that. Dave Ghidiu Lead the bandwagon. Katie Ghidiu That's true. Paul Engin I like that. We have a great library here at FLCC. Katie Ghidiu You do. Paul Engin I think. Katie Ghidiu And we're currently hiring an AI librarian. Paul Engin Look at that. Dave Ghidiu Ooh. That's a hot take, too. Th- and y- we talked, I think, about the Rochester Provocations, which came out a few months ago, and they said librarians were the key to this whole AI literacy. So y- you are, in my estimation, spot on. You've been leading the charge for 20 years. Paul Engin Yeah. That'd be an opportunity for, uh, a place where people could go for support with how to use AI and, and things like that as well, um, for that literacy of, of how, how to use it- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... and the different tools. Um, yeah, I, I really like that. I like that libraries also added the maker spaces, a lot of them, um, just to give, uh, people opportunities to learn different things. Dave Ghidiu W- would you say that libraries are a good, a good proxy of how technology has silently improved over the years and you might not even notice it? Paul Engin Yeah. It seems like it's pivoting slightly from tr- traditional, like all your information was at the library. You go card catalog. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin You learn, and now it's becoming a little bit more hands-on in the sense of maybe not so much as the books, but how to research specific things, how to do specific things, um, and, and like more of a learning platform. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. I like it. Katie Ghidiu Absolutely. I think, um, it's a little bit overlooked at times 'cause the libraries sometimes are off, like, in a building unto themselves, but they really have been hubs of innovation and technological change for a, a while now. And again, I think maybe we just need to market ourselves a little better. Paul Engin Positioning. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Dave Ghidiu All right. Paul Engin All right. How about you, Dave? Hot take? Dave Ghidiu I, I have a hot take. I'd like to follow up, I think a few weeks ago I talked about some drone that would find mosquitoes- Paul Engin Oh, yes Dave Ghidiu ... and- Katie Ghidiu Mm Dave Ghidiu ... just ram into them and chop them into pieces with the propellers. So not to be outdone, there's, is now this- Paul Engin No Dave Ghidiu ... this company, uh, called Photon Matrix, uh, from China, and they have just, like, a device that rests on your table or your wall, and it uses blue lasers to... I, it's like Star Wars. It's like Star Wars in your backyard. And it will just shoot blue lasers and kill these mosquitoes once it uses AI to, like, z- z- zone, zero in on them. Paul Engin Oh my gosh. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. So no matter what, there's gonna be... W- whichever wins or if both win, there will be mosquito shrapnel falling from the skies in your house. Paul Engin You know, it... Would it be cool if you could actually see the, like, the psh, psh, psh, like real lasers, or would that be too freaky? Dave Ghidiu I would like it. Actually, uh, one, one of them you can see it. You can, the, you, you can buy the version where you can actually see the blue lasers or f- if you want, like say, in your bedroom- ... it's clear and it's, like, ultrasonic or something like that. Katie Ghidiu Can we- Paul Engin Uh- Katie Ghidiu Can we order this in the US now? Dave Ghidiu Uh, it's $638. Uh, but, but in all honesty, I think the next iteration is what I want, is, like, a drone where it has a POV camera, and it's super small, but I can chase the mosquitoes. I wanna gamify it and- Paul Engin And you get points Dave Ghidiu ... it would be so cathartic. Paul Engin And then you can invite everyone over- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... have a, have a drink and, uh, and mosquito hunt. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Okay, and I have a second one real quick. How do you like these buttons on my shirt? Paul Engin So, oop, as I hit the mic. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin I, I like them. They're, uh, a velvety- Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Guess what? Paul Engin What? Dave Ghidiu This is my hot take. They're snaps. It... First of all, you got dunked. Paul Engin Oh. Dave Ghidiu You got dunked. That's- Paul Engin Dang. Dave Ghidiu Dunked is like punked by Dave. You got dunked. Paul Engin Dunked? All right. Dave Ghidiu Because they're not, they're not buttons at all. Paul Engin They're not buttons. Dave Ghidiu But I, I think snaps are better 'cause you can do it with one hand. Paul Engin Yeah. Well, you could probably do that Dave Ghidiu It is so hard with buttons with one hand. I was... Like, you ever do the- these wrist ones? Paul Engin Yeah Dave Ghidiu With buttons? It takes forever with one hand. Look at this. Watch this. Ready? Listen to this. ASMR. Paul Engin Ooh. Wow. Dave Ghidiu So my hot take- Paul Engin Wow Dave Ghidiu ... is that snaps are better than buttons. I don't know why we've been- Paul Engin Why we've been doing- Dave Ghidiu ... fooling around with buttons. Yeah. Paul Engin Yeah. I like the fabric on that, too. Dave Ghidiu Thank you. Yeah. Paul Engin That's nice. Dave Ghidiu It is velvety smooth on these- ... snaps. Paul Engin All right. So I got two hot takes. One with your beloved company, Google. Dave Ghidiu Yes, they're, they're awesome. Paul Engin Yes. Uh, so, uh, Katie, I don't know if you heard this, but, uh, Google is buying all of Spirit Airlines' data to feed its AI model. Katie Ghidiu Oh. Paul Engin So, uh, what are both of your thoughts on this? We'll start with Katie first. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Well, I think one of my main questions is, is Google, on this podcast is often there's maybe an ap- apology for Google. Like, Google can do no wrong. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Katie Ghidiu And so if it was Meta doing this- Dave Ghidiu Ooh Katie Ghidiu ... would you react in the same way? Paul Engin Ooh, I like this. And this is all geared... I'm gonna gear all this toward Dave because these are the, uh, contrasting companies for Dave. Dave Ghidiu Well, what you should have done, Paul, is said, "Meta is buying the Spirit data," and seen how I respond. Paul Engin Oh. Dave Ghidiu So Katie, I like where your head's at. Paul Engin Dang. Dave Ghidiu So I, I, and yes, my response would be different, but, but not what you think. Paul Engin All right. Here we go. Dave Ghidiu So Meta's, you know, the same company that bought you, brought you Cambridge Analytica, and the same company that brought you $1 billion in fines because they won't do what the government tells them to do when it comes to child safety. So I do have concerns with the way Meta handles data- Paul Engin Mm-hmm Dave Ghidiu ... over Google. I think Google handles it much better. They anonymize it, and I, and I... We all have to give our data reluctantly to some companies, and I would choose Google over Meta. So yes, my answer would have been different. But I do say, I, I, and I say this in all honesty, and I, and I know, I know that there's, that Google is nothing more than I am the product. I am, I'm not the, the consumer. But I have been using Google Flights recently a number of times. It's a really good product, and if this helps them make it even better, that's awesome. And I, and I don't, I haven't read the specifics of this. Paul Engin Mm-hmm. Dave Ghidiu But I do know, so the company 23andMe, when they were bought, all... I mean, your DNA is way worse than, you know, your flight travel preferences. So when 23andMe was bought, there was a way to opt out before that data was acquired by the acquiring company. And so I'm eager to see if this will also be the case where if you were... Because y- I, and I... You, you, you should have an opportunity to opt out. Paul Engin Right. And I will say that this, this does say the data has been stripped of anything that would allow individuals to be identified, um- Dave Ghidiu Oh Paul Engin ... according to the filing. Dave Ghidiu Yeah, I'm fine with that. Paul Engin But, all right. And even if it was Meta, you'd be fine with that? Dave Ghidiu Knowing that it's anonymized, I feel more comfortable. I just don't like Meta getting any information. Although their AI needs all the help they can get, so maybe- ... maybe I would be on board with that. Paul Engin All right. Um, and so, uh, I think that it's interesting what companies are doing now, buying data, and I just think to myself, could they just now ask Visa for, um, the user data and strip the, strip the- Dave Ghidiu Well- Paul Engin ... so we can tr- I mean- Dave Ghidiu That's the whole- Paul Engin ... at some point Dave Ghidiu ... that's the whole point of, like, Google Pay and Apple Pay is so that they are the intermediaries and they get all that data. Paul Engin Right. But they're buying data from third parties, and that's- Dave Ghidiu Sure Paul Engin ... so it's different when you know who you're using. But if you're using, let's say you're using Google and Meta says, "Hey, Google, what if we, uh... Do you mind if we purchase your..." Not that they would. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin But right? Then you lose control of your data. Um, but okay. Dave Ghidiu All right. Paul Engin So something to keep an eye on. It was interesting. I saw that this morning, and I was like, "Wait, what?" Dave Ghidiu I thought you were gonna say Google's buying Spirit Airlines. I was like, "That's awesome. They're gonna have Google planes flying all over the place." Paul Engin Google planes. Um, and the other one, which I, I always like this company no matter what you think of Mr. Musk. Um, he owns a company called Neuralink, and, uh, Neuralink is, uh, it's a techn- technology-based company that is really using or conceptualizing the brain as a computer and helping connect different things. So when your brain is thinking of something... The one that, um, happened a while ago was paralysis. They could hook up the surgery on the, on the brain, and so when you're firing things to, like, move my legs, they put a receiver on the o- other end of the spine that, where it was broken, and then it would communicate, so then it would tell the legs to move. And in my head I'm like, theoretically, this is, this should work. Like- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... like, we should be able to do this. And they've, they've been somewhat successful. They've done, done it with pigs, and pigs were able to move again. But the cool thing is now they're looking into visual prosthesis. So people who have not been able to see in their lives will have vision again, and it'll be different. I- he says, like, I think on an announcement he said it'll be low resolution at first, but they'll be able to visually see things. Dave Ghidiu That's cool. Paul Engin And then, and then they'll be able to enhance it. And then, you know, he went off the rails and he's like, "We'll be able to enhance people so they could even see in infrared, and da, da, da, da, da." Dave Ghidiu I want that. Paul Engin Like, like - Dave Ghidiu I would totally do that Paul Engin ... you know, like, you could switch your vibe, like, all right, infrared. Dave Ghidiu That's what I want. That- Paul Engin Um Dave Ghidiu ... the Predator can do that. Paul Engin The Preda- Dave Ghidiu You, we would be on... We'd be finally equal to the Predator. Paul Engin That's right. Badlands. Dave Ghidiu Can we see different... That was actually a pretty... It was exactly what I wanted from a Predator movie. Paul Engin Yeah, exactly. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Paul Engin Exactly. Dave Ghidiu All right. We should stop talking about- ... Dave-grade movies and, uh... Paul Engin So why did we bring Katie in today? Dave Ghidiu So you, you would be forgiven if you thought it was because we were going to be talk about academic innovations and learning resources, or libraries even. Paul Engin That's right. That'll be for another time. But today we're gonna talk about tech on trails. Katie Ghidiu We're talking about hiking. Paul Engin Hiking. Um, and I'm not very familiar with this because I am not a outdoor person, so I am very excited to hear about this. Um, I told my daughter that, what, what the topic was this week, and she was like, "Oh, I can't wait to hear it," 'cause- Katie Ghidiu Ooh Paul Engin ... she's big on, you know, uh, hikes and, and camping. Dave Ghidiu She, she did that ultra, the Miami Mosquito you were talking about. Paul Engin Oh, this is my other one- Dave Ghidiu Oh Paul Engin ... in, in Europe. So I- Dave Ghidiu How are, how are all your k- kids outdoors people and you're an indoors guy? Paul Engin I don't know. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Paul Engin I don't know. But, um, I'm, I'm sure, uh, Charlotte would also... So it's Chloe, who's my oldest, and she's interested in hearing about this, and then Charlotte, who's the ultra runner. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin She... Yeah. But, um, all right. So where do we wanna start off with this? Dave Ghidiu Uh, let's see. Do you, do you wanna talk about... Do you just wanna go straight into hiking and camping? Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Sure. Yeah. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Paul Engin Yeah, let's, let's do that. Dave Ghidiu All right. So ta- why don't you s- start us off talking about the PCT, what is the PCT, and how you found yourself at the PCT. Paul Engin What is a PCT? Katie Ghidiu A PCT is the Pacific Crest Trail. Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu So it is a footpath, a hiking trail, that goes all the way from the California/Mexico border in the south up to the Washington State/Canada border in the north. But it- Paul Engin Oh, wow. Dave Ghidiu So it's like the Appalachian Trail of the West? Katie Ghidiu It is. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Katie Ghidiu And so it goes all the way through California, Oregon, and Washington. And so people every year decide that they wanna hike part or all of it, um, and it takes anywhere from three to six months. Paul Engin And how, how long is it? Katie Ghidiu It's just over 2,600 miles. Paul Engin Dang. Katie Ghidiu It's a long ways. Paul Engin And you do it... Okay. Dave Ghidiu That's a lot of walking. Paul Engin That is a lot of walking. So what made you interested in, in this? Is this something that you've always wanted to do? Katie Ghidiu Kind of. I grew up... I got into backpacking in the Adirondack Mountains in New York State as a late teen, and kept doing that, um, and came across references to the Appalachian Trail. So that's the oldest long-distance trail in the United States, and that goes from Georgia to Maine on the East Coast. And there's this whole culture that is built around these long-distance trails, and people are drawn to them for adventure, to, um, sometimes to, like, find themselves, to either get away from a situation or they're looking towards something new. Um, and I always liked the idea of the adventure of it, and I started looking into the trails and decided I wanted to go out west because it was different than the hiking I had done on the East Coast. Paul Engin That's crazy. Okay, so I know nothing- ... nothing about any of this. So, um, with something like this, uh, before we start getting into the technology of it- Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm Paul Engin ... it's not something like, I'm like, "Oh, cool. You know what? I have vacation." "I'm gonna just head out there." Like, you need to plan this, right? Like, this isn't something you just, like, off cuff go and, and do, right? Or is it? Or you can? I don't know. Katie Ghidiu I think what was interesting is the people I met along the way, some people it seemed like they woke up one day and were like, "I don't really have anything else going on. I think I'll start-" Paul Engin Oh my God Katie Ghidiu ... "this six-month hike." But for a lot of other people, including me, it was, like, multiple years of, like, dreaming about it and then, you know, taking the steps to, how do I get time off of work, how do I save up to do it, how do I make sure things at home are taken care of and that I know what I'm doing enough to get out on the trail. So for me it was, it was years of kind of leading towards it. Paul Engin And then there's some people that are just like Forrest Gumping it and just being like- ... "I'm just gonna keep going and going and going." Katie Ghidiu Yeah, there's some people who do, um, I think they kind of get, like, drawn into the lifestyle. And so some of the people I met were like, "Last year I did the Appalachian Trail. This year I'm doing the Pacific Crest Trail. Next year I'm doing the Continental Divide Trail." And they just kind of like, their life becomes- Paul Engin For real Katie Ghidiu ... hiking these trails. Yeah. Paul Engin All right. And, um, with this we're... Let's see. So, um, you are ruc- you're essentially rucking, right? You have to have a bag and... Okay, I, I'm s- Dave Ghidiu You're doing well, Paul. Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin So this is not like I'm going from one hotel to another hotel. Right? I'm, I'm telling you. Dave Ghidiu Al- although there is a name for that, right? Katie Ghidiu Yeah. So the, the way most people do it is, yes, you carry everything you need in your backpack. Um, you start on the trail, and then every three to 10 days you cross a road that leads to a town, and you find a way to get to that town and buy more supplies and, like, go to a hotel or, like... There's all, there's all this, like, these mini economies that have grown up around these, like, trail crossings. Um, and you buy more food and you shower and, like, you might go to the library and charge your devices. Um, and then you go back to trail and keep hiking north. Paul Engin Oh my... So it's, so you, you plan out three to 10 days? Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Dave Ghidiu So 10 days of food. Paul Engin And you're, you're camping. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin And you, you got... Oh my gosh. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin Just- Katie Ghidiu So there's a lot of logistics that go into it. Um, and one of the biggest changes technology-wise, I know we're gonna get into it- Paul Engin Sure Katie Ghidiu ... but when I started hiking, and maybe if, like, for those of you who do hike, I was always told, like, "You have to bring a paper map because technology is unreliable out in the backcountry." Like, you might not have service. You might... Your, if your battery dies. So you're carrying around these, like, paper maps and, like, unfolding them and trying- ... to see, like, "Where is water? Where can I camp?" Um, but, like, the biggest change in backpacking is there are apps now that do that, and, like, battery technology has gotten better and, like, satellites. And so there's this app called FarOut, and the whole trail is on it, and it's like a mix of- A map and social media. So people leave messages for each other like- Paul Engin Oh Katie Ghidiu ... "Oh, this stretch up ahead, there's still snow on it, so you might want to have, like, your microspikes," or, "The water is running really well at the next stream, so, like, you can plan on it to refill your water bottles." So it's really cool. Paul Engin Oh my gosh. It's like a Waze of, uh, of trails. Dave Ghidiu Of trails. So- Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm Dave Ghidiu ... and, and there's no trolls or anything on this app, right? Katie Ghidiu No, it actually is really, like- Dave Ghidiu Usually Katie Ghidiu ... positive. There is a way to, like, up vote and down vote, like- Dave Ghidiu Oh, okay Katie Ghidiu ... um, comments, and they're in chronological order too. So you can see kind of the most recent intel on what's coming up ahead. Um, but yeah, I think because it's so useful and people depend on it so much that it, it generally is, like, really useful information that people put in there. Dave Ghidiu Especially 'cause the paper maps, like the trail changes. You know, like, uh, when you were doing it that one year, uh, what was the issue where you had to, like you had to cross a stream, but the bridge was out or...? Katie Ghidiu Yeah, there was this one section in, um, I think it was in Yosemite National Park, and like the winter thaw had been so strong that it, like, swept away this huge bridge over this river. And so when we came to it, it was, like, unfordable. Like, people tried and they got, like, swept downstream- ... and they, they had to, like, leave the trail. Um, so then people left comments of these, like, alternate routes you could take. Dave Ghidiu Oh, wow. Katie Ghidiu And so we ended up doing that. Dave Ghidiu One thing that, so that you don't think about, like I didn't think about this 'cause we did, uh, we did a little bit of hiking with Far Out this past summer, is when you have cell phone reception, it downloads, like, all the latest comments and everything. And so we'd, I'd be like, "Oh, Katie, it looks like there's water up ahead in, like, three miles." And she'd be like, "How old is that comment?" I'd be like, "It's two days." She's like, "Well, that's, like, you get... It's a little sus if a comment is two days old and it's talking about water." So even though you have the power of, like, crowdsourced in your hand, you still have to have the, the chops of understanding how the trail works to know that, like, water can disappear in two days. Katie Ghidiu Mm. Paul Engin So you can't rely on it. Like, you have to have a backup with your water? Is that... Katie Ghidiu Yeah. So I would usually depend. If it was a few days old, um, and we were hiking in July, so like out West things start to, like, dry up in- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... the summer. Like, water was a big part of hiking the trail. Um, making sure that you're, you know where the next water source is and that it's a reliable one. Like, it's not one that dries up- Paul Engin Dries up Katie Ghidiu ... every year. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Um, so a few days I would generally rely on, and people would leave, like... They would leave comments that would say, "This water is running, like, 10 liters a minute. I was able to collect 10 liters in a minute." Or they would say, "This is a trickle. Like- Dave Ghidiu Mm-hmm Katie Ghidiu ... it probably will be gone tomorrow." And so, like, people- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... were very specific in the information they left. Paul Engin Okay. So this might be a little bit geared toward technology, but speaking of water- Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm Paul Engin ... do you... Is it a special bottle you use so then it filters? There's, like, a filter system that's built into this, or do you boil it? I don't, I don't know. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. That's another area where hiking technology has changed. Um, so, you know, a long time ago you did have to boil your water- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... and you still can do that. Um, and then for a while, people were using... There's, like, chemical drops you can put in your water or iodine, um, and that will, um, kill any, like, bacteria- Paul Engin Mm Katie Ghidiu ... or, or things that'll make you sick. Um, but it sometimes leaves a bad taste. And so now they have filters, and since I've been hiking, the filter used to be, like, this big. Paul Engin Massive. Katie Ghidiu And massive. Dave Ghidiu It's, like, foot, foot long. Katie Ghidiu And you'd have to, like, put the end of a hose in the stream and, like, pump it. Um, and now it's just, like, a little tube the size of, um... It's smaller than, like, a case for your glasses, and you screw it on the top of a water bottle. You fill up the water bottle, screw it on top, and then you can just drink through it. Dave Ghidiu Do you have one? Is it- Katie Ghidiu I did bring one with me. Yeah. Paul Engin Oh, you, you can show it. We have the- Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Okay. Is it okay to- Paul Engin Yeah, yeah. Katie Ghidiu Okay. Paul Engin Absolutely, yeah. Dave Ghidiu And w- one of the other things about the, the older ones, like the chemicals, is you might have to wait 20 to 30 to 60 minutes for the chemicals to do their business, and this is so much faster. Paul Engin So is this, like, a... And, and just so everyone knows who's not watching the video, uh, Katie will be right back. She's just getting, uh, a bottle to show for an example. But, um, is this like a, like, you know those little Brita filter things that you put into, uh, a thing and then it, it slowly drains through? Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin Is it something like that? Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin Oh, that's it? Okay. Katie Ghidiu So this is called the Sawyer Squeeze. Non-sponsored. Um- Paul Engin It's, it's- Dave Ghidiu It's about six f- Paul Engin It's- Dave Ghidiu ... six inches long and maybe an inch and a half at the most in the diameter, about closer to an inch and a quarter. Katie Ghidiu And it screws onto... I have, like, a plastic- Paul Engin Oh. Oh, wow Katie Ghidiu ... reusable water bottle. Paul Engin Oh, and, and it's like this so you could compact it- Katie Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... for packing? So it's a water bottle that has a hard plastic on the bottom and the top, and then you can kinda compress it in the middle. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. So, and it... I, I noticed on trail you were using, a lot of people were using, like, the smart water bottles. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. So it fits on these, which you can buy, but it also fits on, like, a water bottle you can buy at a grocery store. So people a lot of times will just get those and then replace them down the trail. Paul Engin And then this side goes to...? Katie Ghidiu So you fill up the water bottle in your, in a stream. Paul Engin In a regular stream. Dave Ghidiu So it's got regular water. Katie Ghidiu A regular stream- Paul Engin Okay Katie Ghidiu ... or a pond. Streams are better 'cause it's, like, flowing. Paul Engin Flowing, right. Katie Ghidiu Um, and then you just squeeze it, and the water coming out the nozzle end you can drink. Dave Ghidiu It's like a Gatorade bottle. Paul Engin Oh, wow. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin That is great. Oh, that is quick then. Dave Ghidiu It's like water on demand. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin Yeah. Wow. Katie Ghidiu And so there's different brands and different, you know, versions of this technology, but it's pretty much what most people use now. Dave Ghidiu S- so the evolution went from probably boiling to either the pills or the chemicals to now this Sawyer Squeeze type filtration. Well, and then, and also that filter where you have to, like, pump it and everything. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Dave Ghidiu So, so this episode, what, what I think we're really looking at is, like- Paul Engin Sponsorships? Dave Ghidiu Sawyer, friend of the pod. Uh, is the... I, I think it's, like, the invisible technology. So Paul, who is probably like, "Oh, I, I thought we, like, we would boil water," and then there's been all these steps to get to where we are today with the Sawyer Squeeze, and I think that translates to probably almost any domain. So we're focusing in, we're drilling down on the tech on the trail and looking at the evolution. So, uh, listeners, your job is to take this episode and translate it to your- ... area of expertise and, and just consider the technology evolution. Paul Engin Yeah, that's true. I mean, I, I think to myself, when, when'd you start backpack? Like, when did you start trails? Um, do you notice, like when, when you first started, you were carrying like... And we'll talk about weight, but- Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm Paul Engin ... like, you know, 100-pound sack and, and then now because of the technology it's, like, 10 pounds or like what- Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin It, it seems like you're saying, like, you needed all these things to, to filter water, and then everything was big and bulky and probably wasn't compressible or... Katie Ghidiu Yeah. And almost, um, we talked about it a lot this summer, 'cause Dave and I went on a two-week backpacking trip. Um, but almost everything that we used has changed in the past, um, decade. Paul Engin In the pa- okay. Katie Ghidiu I would say to be much lighter and to be able to be used for multiple purposes. Um, so my base weight when I was hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, which is everything you carry outside of food and water, like your consumables. Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu So everything you carry with you. Paul Engin So that's gonna fluctuate. Katie Ghidiu That'll fluctuate- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... depending on how far you're going, um, was 12 pounds. Dave Ghidiu 12 pounds. Paul Engin That's crazy. Dave Ghidiu That's your backpack and your tent? Katie Ghidiu It's backpack, tent, sleeping bag, water filtration, um, stove, like- Dave Ghidiu Crocs? Katie Ghidiu Yeah, Crocs. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Katie Ghidiu Clothes. Paul Engin So let me ask, what was it before that? What do you think it was? Katie Ghidiu So- Paul Engin 12 pounds is light Katie Ghidiu ... there are a lot of people who post about hiking back in, like, the '70s when people started hiking the trail. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu And their packs were usually 50 to 75 pounds. Dave Ghidiu Base weight? Katie Ghidiu I think that's probably with some water, but I would say f- 50 pounds probably. Paul Engin So I, I wanna say military rucks are 35-pound bags. Like, you know, when you're rucking and you're doing a ruck- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... I think it's a base of 35. I'm not sure. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin But I know my, my daughters were doing the rucking, and they were always putting, like, physical- Dave Ghidiu Weight Paul Engin ... like, weights in their bag- Katie Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... and, and practicing. Um, and we'll get into practicing, uh- Dave Ghidiu Oh. Paul Engin ... you know, in a little bit. Um, I'm pointing at Dave because- Dave Ghidiu Gotta go Paul Engin ... we know what happened there. Katie Ghidiu I heard. I heard on some past pods. Paul Engin Um, but 12 pounds is crazy light. Dave Ghidiu W- it would... And, and that's be... I'm assuming because, like... And I remember the backpacks. L- like, if you talk to any boy s- anyone who's a Boy Scout in the '70, like, oh, the, the external frame. They have, like, these big rectangular, like, aluminum- Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm Dave Ghidiu ... frames. Like, they'd have cast iron frying pans hanging off them. Like, that's not- Paul Engin That's exactly what I have. Dave Ghidiu That's... Yeah, I know. That's not... Now you have the, the internal frame, which is basically just, like, nylon. Like, you have a sack of nylon on your back. Katie Ghidiu Basically. And as gear has gotten lighter, then the backpacks don't have to be as robust. 'Cause you don't- Paul Engin Mm Katie Ghidiu ... have to be able to carry as much weight. Paul Engin Oh, yes. Katie Ghidiu So they kind of, like, they drive each other, too. Paul Engin Oh, that's cool. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin So one is a dependent of the other. Katie Ghidiu So I think it's that, and then also, um, there's been enhancements in materials that are used in a lot of the equipment to make it lighter and more waterproof and, you know, pack down smaller. Um, but I think another change is that a lot of the gear you can use for multiple purposes. Dave Ghidiu Oh, tell us. Katie Ghidiu And so if you think about a tent, if you're someone who's gone car camping or maybe backpacking, um, and you don't have an ultralight tent, you have your tent. It has a rain fly, and it has poles that you have to kind of, like, assemble and put through it to keep it up, right? Paul Engin Yep. Katie Ghidiu And a lot of the backpacking tents, to save weight, use your hiking poles, like your sticks, to hold up the tent. They're that structure, and they take the place- Paul Engin Oh Katie Ghidiu ... of those aluminum poles. Dave Ghidiu So there are no poles. Katie Ghidiu So there are no poles. You're using your trekking poles for multiple purposes. Um, and then the fabric that the tents are made out of, there's a, a type of fabric called Dyneema, and it's super lightweight. Um, and that's what a lot of the newer tents are made out of. So- Paul Engin It's not the nylon- Katie Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... the old school... I think I have an old school nylon one. And I'm like, "It's so hot." Katie Ghidiu Yeah, yeah. Dave Ghidiu Yeah, it's hot. And we, we have one, you know, when we do, like, car camping with the dogs or something, and it's, it's probably, like, a 15-pound tent by the time you have the poles and everything and... But how m- do you know how much your tent weighs? Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Um, and mine isn't the lightest, but with the tent and stakes to, like, stake it down, it was 40 ounces- Dave Ghidiu Oh my gosh Katie Ghidiu ... I think. So- Dave Ghidiu So you're talking about ounces, not even pounds. Katie Ghidiu Just over two pounds. Dave Ghidiu No. Paul Engin No. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin That is amazing, and it's still sturdy. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. And it was a two-person tent too, too, so people go down to, like, smaller tent sizes. Dave Ghidiu Yeah, and not for nothing, the, the, the, like, the Coleman or whatever I have, like, that would die if, if we used it 120 days in a row. Like, it would be gone, and you've used yours for 2,600 miles. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Yeah. Paul Engin That is amazing. Um, well let's get... Do you wanna get into, um, you know, l- the footwear and then kind of work our way through that- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... and then kind of talk about the camping? Um, there's so much to this. We'll try to touch on everything quickly, but- Dave Ghidiu Yeah. So, so maybe you'll just say, like, footwear, and then I'll pick something and say navigation. Paul Engin Okay. Dave Ghidiu And then let Katie riff on the evolution of technology. Paul Engin Yeah. So let's start with footwear because I think that's the most important- Katie Ghidiu Sure, yeah Paul Engin ... to maybe- Katie Ghidiu It's critical Paul Engin ... next to water, I guess. I don't- Katie Ghidiu Critical for staying- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... uh, healthy and, and on your hike. Um, so the evolution here is, uh, when I started hiking in the late '90s, early 2000s, um, people were like, "You have to wear boots. You have to wear boots that, like, cover your ankles. They have to be, like, leather and really, like, stiff," right? Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu You wanna have that protection on the trail. And now, um, running shoes have evolved so much that the majority of people wear trail running shoes from the big brands like HOKA or Saucony or Nike. Um- And they're so much lighter. But they also, um, are a better experience because if they get wet, the water can drain out. Whereas if you're wearing, like, a leather hiking boot, it's really heavy, but also it holds all that water in- Paul Engin Oh, I see. Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... so you're just, like, wet all day. Paul Engin That's interesting. That's what... Oh. Dave Ghidiu The- I brought one into the studio. Paul Engin There it is. Dave Ghidiu This is the HOKA. Paul Engin The HOKA. Dave Ghidiu Just feel how good the, the, the light, the weight-ness. Like, that's pretty light. Paul Engin That is light. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Paul Engin And I will say my, my daughter when she ran the ultra, uh, got a trail running with a Gore-Tex- Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm Paul Engin ... for, so the water would run out. Um, but- Katie Ghidiu The downside is they're less, um, robust. So a pair of hiking boots you could probably walk all 2,600 miles in. I had to buy five different pairs of shoes- ... 'cause they would wear out. Paul Engin Oh, wow. Katie Ghidiu So it's a big expense. Paul Engin Let me ask you, do you need to wear, again ignorance, ankle support? Like, do you put a brace for your ankle because it's not a boot that goes up and supports your ankle? So do you- Katie Ghidiu That's a good question. I don't. Um, I... Some people might, though, like, if they have pre-existing ankle injuries. But I feel like it also, like, your ankle strengthens over time. Um- Dave Ghidiu That's true, and the backpack is a lot lighter, and your gear. Katie Ghidiu Yes. That's true. That's another part where, like- Paul Engin Oh, that's good. Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... lighter gear makes it so that you're putting less weight on your, on your ankles and feet. Paul Engin Okay. All right. Very good. So we've gone from boots to, uh, basically trail shoes. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Dave Ghidiu And, uh, I think maybe I did pique the interest of some listeners when I mentioned you did carry Crocs. Katie Ghidiu That's true. So also- Paul Engin Yeah, what is that for? Wait a minute. Katie Ghidiu Um, so there are things that people carry that are maybe luxuries. I don't know if- ... in our normal life we would call them luxuries, but, like, they're not strictly critical to cover the trail. Um, and camp shoes are shoes you would wear, like, after you're done hiking for the day, are one of those luxuries. So I carried Crocs, um, so when I was in town I could take my sneakers off, um- Paul Engin Oh Katie Ghidiu ... or, like, at my campsite for the night. Paul Engin Yeah. Dave Ghidiu Put them in performance mode or relax mode. Katie Ghidiu Exactly. Paul Engin Switching that dial- ... from the heel to the front. Dave Ghidiu The apparel, how has that changed? Paul Engin What do you mean by apparel, Dave? Like, what are you- Dave Ghidiu Uh, s- s- so I think when, when you're hiking, usually you might have, like, base layers. Paul Engin Clothes. Dave Ghidiu You might have, like- Paul Engin Oh, yeah Dave Ghidiu ... wicking shirts, hats. Like, any... Shorts. Like, what, what, what's the apparel paradigm on the, on the trail? Paul Engin Yeah, is it, like, athletic wear or tight? Katie Ghidiu A lot of it's ath- like, synthetic materials, like athletic wear. The popular choice out west was something called a sun hoodie. So it's like a long sleeve lightweight shirt with a hood on it. So when it was really sunny- Paul Engin Oh Katie Ghidiu ... you could put the hood up and it would act as, like, um, sun protection for you. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Um, wool is also very popular 'cause it stays warm when it gets wet. Paul Engin Oh. Katie Ghidiu And then the third thing is fleece. So probably a lot of you have, like, a fleece that you would wear maybe if it gets chilly- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... in the fall- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... or whatever. Um, there's a new fabric that's used in fleeces called Alpha Direct. And it looks like, like cobwebs kind of. Like, it is so lightweight you wouldn't think it would keep you warm, but it traps air, like, against your skin. And so it might... For me, my old fleece was, like, two pounds. It was, like, an old Patagonia or, like- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... Columbia fleece. And this weighs less than eight ounces. Paul Engin Is it still soft like a fleece or is it- Katie Ghidiu It's so soft. Paul Engin Okay. Dave Ghidiu Oh, it's so nice. I've, I put a link to it in the show notes. Uh, are you, are you talking about the Senchi? Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. It's unbelievable. It's, it's, like, transparent almost. L- or translucent. Like, you can see through the holes and the, the weaves. Paul Engin That is... Okay. Dave Ghidiu But the- but you pick it up and it weighs, like... Uh, do you know how many ounces off the top of your head, Kate? Katie Ghidiu It depends on the, how big it is, the size. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Katie Ghidiu I think it's, like, eight ounces. Dave Ghidiu Oh my gosh. Paul Engin And ignorance, is it, like, UV protection too so you're not getting burned in those trails? Or is it, or is it just some level of shade and some level of warmth? Katie Ghidiu So the, the Senchi or the fleece is usually just for warmth. Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu The sun hoodies that you, most people wear as their, like, daily driver out there, um, do have some level of UV protection. And so you have to decide do you want a heavier weight fabric that has a higher level of UV protection- Paul Engin Mm-hmm Katie Ghidiu ... or a lower, like, a thinner fabric that might keep you cooler but is less protective for the sun. Paul Engin Got you. Dave Ghidiu And I will say this about the sun hoodies. I like the look of them, and they're nice, but when we were hiking this summer, it was, I don't know, like, 150 degrees. And, like, the last thing I want is a long sleeve shirt. But it was so nice. Like, because it pro- just protects you so much. And it's only uncomfortable for, you know, 20 seconds. Paul Engin Right. And I guess if you know you're gonna sweat, you know you're gonna sweat. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin You know? Dave Ghidiu It doesn't matter if you're in a short sleeve or long sleeve- Paul Engin Yeah Dave Ghidiu ... when it's brutal sun. Paul Engin So the next one for me is, uh, navigation. Um, how is that... Um, I know we talked before about the Kronos. Katie Ghidiu Coros. Paul Engin Coros. Sorry. Oh, Chloe's gonna be mad at me. Dave Ghidiu Oh my gosh. Katie Ghidiu She's gonna be mad. Dave Ghidiu It's okay. She has a Coros too. Paul Engin Oh, you have a Coros too. Oh, there you go, Chlo. Dave Ghidiu So- Paul Engin Uh. Um, now, you mentioned maps. Do you use your Coros? Do you use a map? Do you have another navigation tool? Like, how do you... Or is it just obvious? They have signs that says go that way. Katie Ghidiu That's a great question. Um, it's pretty easy to navigate on the trail. There are markings on these, on these major trails on the trees. That being said, it varies greatly from area to area depending on the local trail support and volunteers. Um, so you wouldn't wanna depend only on that. And I didn't use... So I wear a Coros GPS watch. I use it a lot for running and shorter hiking. Um, it would have, it wouldn't have been able to hold, like, all of the data to- Dave Ghidiu Oh, the maps Katie Ghidiu ... follow it for the maps. Yeah. Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu For, like, the three months- Paul Engin That's fair Katie Ghidiu ... that I was out there. Um, so I used that FarOut app on my phone as my major- ... navigation source. And then I had some backup mapping apps. Um, so one is Gaia GPS, and the other is... I can't remember the name of it right now. Paul Engin And are they offline with satellite? Katie Ghidiu Yes. Paul Engin Is that what... Those are two big features that you would need for this, right? Katie Ghidiu Yeah. They're offline with satellite, and then when you get back into where you have service, sometimes you might update them, and they could pull down the most current information. Um- Paul Engin And those are when, like, when you get into your, the towns or whatever, the- Katie Ghidiu Usually in towns- Paul Engin Okay Katie Ghidiu ... or if you find yourself up on top of a ridge without any, like, obstruction from trees or other mountains, usually you can catch a signal- Paul Engin Okay Katie Ghidiu ... up there. Paul Engin All right. So this would freak me out. Is this- Do you notify... I mean, I know, like, you know, maybe you notify Dave that you're doing this, but is there, like, an authority where you're like, um, you know, uh, tr- trail police- ... I'm gonna be entering August 20- ... n- August 19th. If you don't see me in three days or hear from my communi-... Is there something like that, or is that ignorance on my part? Katie Ghidiu It depends where you're hiking. Um, so for example, in the Adirondack Mountains, there's a trail register at the start of every trail. You sign in, and when you come out, you sign out. It's not required, but I think the rangers up there do check it. So if- Paul Engin For safety, right? Katie Ghidiu ... you went missing and your family called them, they would go check the trail registers. On the Pacific Crest Trail, there's just too many entry and exit points. They wouldn't really be able to track that, and there's not one organization that oversees safety for the entire trail. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu There is, like, an, a non-for-profit that kind of supports work being done on it. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Um, so what I used is a device called an InReach, and it's made by Garmin. And it's like a separate, like, it's like a small box, smaller than a cellphone. Um, and you attach it to your pack, and it, um- Paul Engin Track you Katie Ghidiu ... you can send, it tracks you, and you can send messages. And there's also an SOS button on it. So if you are out of cellphone service, and you need to call in, like, a helicopter rescue or something, it automatically connects to whatever district you're in, um, and will send, like, search and rescue. Paul Engin Oh. And is this something where... So it's like, I'm just gonna say, like, a Life360 or Norton 3, like, where, like, you can track people. Like, this will allow other people to sh- s- see where you're at, so they're aware of where you're at or your last location. Katie Ghidiu Yes. Paul Engin And it, like, pings them so they're aware of it? Katie Ghidiu Yes. Paul Engin Oh, that's cool. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Dave Ghidiu W- with some s- strings attached. Uh, I mean, sometimes even the InReach can't s- communicate with the satellite. So I might be looking at Katie's trail, but I have, like, four hours, like, this was the last ping. And then once it h- can clear it, then it's qu- quite quick. Paul Engin Yeah. That's, that's been, that must have been one of the biggest advancements is now that we have satellite. I assume when you started this it was just paper maps. You had no watches, and a compass. I assume maybe you used... Does everyone know what a compass is? I don't know. Right? Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin Is that true? Like, you had a compass when you started, and maps, or like- Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Starting hiking, yeah, in the late '90s, early 2000s, I did carry a paper map. I carried a compass. Um, I wasn't the best at using the compass, but I f- felt like, you know, f- like, it has- Paul Engin You understand it Katie Ghidiu ... understand it. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Um, so some of these advances, just what you said, right? The, the satellites and having, uh, these devices that help with navigation I think really open the trails to people who didn't have those map and compass skills. And so now you can get out there, and you have the tools to navigate without needing, without needing a compass. Paul Engin That's talking about advancements in technology. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin That's... Yeah. All right. Anya, what's your next one? Dave Ghidiu I'm curious about trekking poles. And we talked about them earlier on the show, a, a different episode, because I, when I had the snapping hip and the trekking poles really, like, helped me with that. But can you just talk to us, what are trekking poles? What do they... And what's been the evolution of them? Katie Ghidiu Um- Paul Engin And what's the purpose, by the way? Katie Ghidiu So trekking poles are, like, walking sticks, I guess. And usually have- Paul Engin Or ski poles maybe Katie Ghidiu ... or ski poles I guess they look like, but they're for hiking. And you have two of... Oh. I hit the microphone. You have two of them. Because I was gesturing how I would walk with hiking poles. Um, they help if you're going for long distance or have a heavy load. Like, you can transfer some of the stress and weight that would be on your legs to your arms, right? So if you're going uphill, you can kind of use them to help pull yourself up. Or if you're going downhill, you can help take some of the, like, load that would be all, you know, on your legs and feet. Um, and so on these really long treks, most people use them. Um, or a lot of times if you're getting older. Like, I remember when I was a teen- Dave Ghidiu Excuse me Katie Ghidiu ... like, I would not be using, I would not be caught dead using a trekking pole. And, like, now I use them all the time. So there's that. Paul Engin But because it's cool. Dave Ghidiu Mm. Paul Engin Not because we're older. Katie Ghidiu Well, you learn as you get older and gain wisdom, right? Paul Engin Oh, that's right. Katie Ghidiu You're like, "This, this will help." Paul Engin I like that. Katie Ghidiu Um, I don't know that they've changed that much other than when I was a kid I remember my dad, like, whittling a hiking stick out of wood- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... like, to take o-... You know what I mean? Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu And now they're, they're lightweight. They're carbo- a lot of them are made out of, like, carbon fiber. They're collapsible, so you can collapse them down, um, to be maybe a foot or two tall. So when you're traveling you can put them in your backpack. Paul Engin And is it... I assume that they're sturdy enough where, like... Or- Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm Paul Engin ... ignorance. Is a walking pole for you different than a walking pole for me? Do I need a thicker one? Or, like, does it matter that I weigh more with these poles? Or, like... It, I don't know. I don't know. Is that even a- Katie Ghidiu I don't think so. I think they're all w- can handle, like, a human- Paul Engin Weight Katie Ghidiu ... weight. Um, they do adjust to different sizes, so you wanna make sure you have one that is for a taller person than- Paul Engin Okay Katie Ghidiu ... than mine would be. Paul Engin And, and I know this is weird, but, like, I know, like, when you're biking, the seat needs to be a certain height compared to your thing. What's the... Do you hold out the poles, and does it have to be by your chest or something? Like, what is the... Oh, is that what it is? It's, or- Katie Ghidiu It's not that scientific- Paul Engin Okay Katie Ghidiu ... that I know of Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu I'm not a hiking pole expert. There might be some out there who are. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu But generally, generally, I would hold it out, and, like, is it comfortable? Paul Engin It's comfortable. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin Okay, when you're- Dave Ghidiu And, and would you ever adjust them to be shorter or taller if you're going uphill or downhill? 'Cause I know that's one of the advantages, but I don't know if that's in practicality if you take the time to do that. Katie Ghidiu I think people do. I'm, I'm a bit lazy in my hiking pole usage- Dave Ghidiu Okay. Katie Ghidiu ... so I just set them- Dave Ghidiu Leave it Katie Ghidiu ... and, yeah, trek on with them and figure it out. Paul Engin And pull out some when you need to. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin All right, so, um, sleeping bags. How do you sleep? What's the... Are, are there no sleeping bags anymore? I don't know. Katie Ghidiu Yeah, we just have a thin piece of plastic we wrap around. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu No, I'm just kidding. Um, so the evolution there, there's been evolution in fabrics and materials, but s- uh, in gener- generally they're still, like, a, a sack of something insulating- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... right? That you use to keep warm at night and comfortable. Um, the biggest change there is that there's something called a sleeping quilt now. So if you think of a quilt versus a sleeping bag, the bag usually has a zipper that goes- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... all the way up. Um, sometimes it's sewn that way, and you can't open it up. The quilt is less fabric, so it's lighter. Um, and there's no bottom to it, so you know if you're sleeping on, um... When you're hiking, you normally have, like, a, some sort of insulation under you, like a- Paul Engin Mm-hmm Katie Ghidiu ... mat or an inflatable mattress. And with a sleeping bag, you have the bag underneath you, but it really doesn't keep you any warmer because the insulating factor gets crushed down because your body weight on it. So the quilt takes that part of the fabric out to keep it lighter. Paul Engin Oh. Katie Ghidiu And there's these little straps that go around your sleeping mat to, um, keep air, it airtight. Paul Engin Oh, that's cool. Dave Ghidiu Yeah, and, and those sleeping bags, like, when I was a kid, you know, on sleepovers, it would be a foot and a half diameter by the time you, like, rolled it up, and it was just, like, cotton and polyester. But the... How big is a quilt when you kinda compress it or...? Katie Ghidiu It's pretty s- um, it's pretty small now. Like, they're very compressible. I don't have a good- Dave Ghidiu Okay. Katie Ghidiu Do you have a good size analogy? Dave Ghidiu I had... Like, was- Katie Ghidiu Or weight Dave Ghidiu ... was it like a football? Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Katie Ghidiu Yeah, that's good. Paul Engin Oh, that's small. Katie Ghidiu Size of a football. Dave Ghidiu But it's so much lighter than a football, I think. I don't know. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin That's crazy. Dave Ghidiu And y- you had talked about sleeping pads, so you would kinda, like, wrap it around the sleeping... Oh, by the way, one of the other nice things about that is, like, if, if you're sitting outside the tent, you know, you know, before you go to bed, you can, like, wear it like a blanket, right? Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Dave Ghidiu Yeah, they're, they're basically like a throw blanket. Paul Engin So do you also... So there is a pad to, to give you cushion from the, the ground. So you, you'd lay the tent. You always... Okay. You always have a tent, right? Katie Ghidiu Well- Paul Engin Or do you not use tents sometimes? Katie Ghidiu You should always carry some sort of shelter. So a tent or a tarp. Some people are pretty hardcore, and they're like, "I don't need the sides or the bottom. I'm just gonna have a tarp." Um, I carried a tent. I like having things between me- Dave Ghidiu Enclosed, yeah Katie Ghidiu ... and, like, scorpions and rattlesnakes and everything. Paul Engin Did you wake up with a scorpion underneath your sleeping bag? Katie Ghidiu That did happen one time. Um- Paul Engin What? Katie Ghidiu See- Dave Ghidiu Sorry, Kate's parents- ... if you're listening to this episode. Paul Engin Oh, geez. Katie Ghidiu Um, it is pretty common on the trails out west where it doesn't rain much to do what they call cowboy camping. And so you don't set up your tent. You just lay your sleeping mat down and take out your sleeping bag and kinda lay under the stars. I did that maybe twice. I'm not- Paul Engin Not for you? Katie Ghidiu I, yeah, I just think about things crawling on me in the night. Dave Ghidiu Is that when you had the scorpion? Katie Ghidiu Yes. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Katie Ghidiu Yes. Dave Ghidiu That was- Paul Engin Oh, when you were open air. Katie Ghidiu Yes. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin Oh, cowboy. Yeah, that's crazy. Dave Ghidiu So- Paul Engin No, thank you. Dave Ghidiu The sleeping pads when, when I was camping would be one of two types. Like, if you were on the cheap, you could spend, like, $6 at Walmart and get, like, a really big, bulky, like, mat that rolls up. And again, it's, like, two feet wide. Um- Paul Engin Is this, like, yoga mat? I'm sorry. Dave Ghidiu Yeah, it's like a yoga mat. Paul Engin Okay, okay. Dave Ghidiu Uh, and then if you were bougie, you would buy, like, a $200 inflatable, like, uh, Therm-a-Rest, and it would, it would get really, really small, and you just blow it up with air. So what are you using? Katie Ghidiu I use a closed cell foam pad, which is a thin... Kind of like a yoga mat, but it folds up like an accordion. And it has dimples in it, um, I think for air, like, to keep more air underneath- Paul Engin Oh, okay Katie Ghidiu ... and on top of to keep you warmer. Um, but I chose that versus an inflatable one because you can also use it to sit on when you're taking breaks. So I try and think of things I can use multiple times. Paul Engin Oh, multi-use. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin Yeah, you were mentioning that. Dave Ghidiu And y- did you carry that on the outside of your pack? Katie Ghidiu Yes. Dave Ghidiu So if it did rain, it wasn't, like, fabric. It would just- Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Not that it rained when you're out there. Paul Engin Well, that's a whole thing about positioning where everything goes. Do you have... Do you plan that? You probably have to plan, like, "Okay, this is gonna go here. This is gonna go here. Outside, inside." Katie Ghidiu I got a lot better as I did it- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... day after day after day. Yeah, there were many times where I was like, "Take, stop for a break," and the one thing I need is at the absolute bottom of my pack. And I would take everything out and then pack it all up again. So yes, you kind of learn where to put things so they're easy access, and you can get your food and snacks for the day. Paul Engin Quickly. Katie Ghidiu Quickly. Dave Ghidiu Oh, yeah, 'cause some things you don't need until you set up camp, but some things you need throughout the day. Katie Ghidiu Yes. Dave Ghidiu And I think that's also just a good, a good analogy for technology in general and in any domain where technology will make your job easier, but you still need that experience to guide, you know, what goes where. And you have to think about, like, using the wisdom of the trail. And I think you also... I- is it true that in the beginning maybe your food bag is very, very heavy, but as you eat more food, maybe you put it a little bit closer to the top because it's not the heaviest thing anymore? Like, did, did you shift where things went based on- Paul Engin Where you're at. Speaker 4 Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Yes. Based on weight and, like, comfort for carrying it in your pack. Usually you want the heavier things towards the bottom. Um, but I, I would also do it by order of when I needed things. So, like, my tent would go at the very bottom. Speaker 4 So you need that experience. Paul Engin So I'm gonna wrap this into, uh, the food segment. Speaker 4 Mm-hmm. Paul Engin Um, so what do you use for cooking, and what type of food do you eat, like, on the trail? And what do you, what do you, quote, unquote, "cook?" Or do you cook, or do you guys go hunting- ... with your hands- Speaker 4 Like bare hands Paul Engin ... bare hands and, uh... Katie Ghidiu No, that would be really the next level, I think. Um, the only food you could kind of forage along the trail was berries. There were just millions of berry bushes, like huckleberries, blackberries, raspberries, as you went north, like, in July and August, so that was wonderful. But not enough to sustain you when you're hiking, like, 20 to 30 miles a day. Paul Engin Um, and do you have an app to make sure it's not poisonous? Like, or, or do you know? I mean, I guess people recognize what is poisonous. I don't know what... I would never touch anything- Speaker 4 Yeah Paul Engin ... 'cause I'd be like, "That's poison." I don't know. Katie Ghidiu I did not. So, f- um- Paul Engin But you're alive. Katie Ghidiu But I'm alive. So- Speaker 4 This could be, this could be a ghost, Katie. Paul Engin Oh, it could be. It could be. Katie Ghidiu Um, so for food, I started out with more, like, bougie backpacking food. Paul Engin Mm-hmm. Katie Ghidiu So you can buy, like, at, at a store like REI or on Amazon or whatever, you can buy dehydrated meals that you add boiling water to, and they, like, rehydrate in 10 minutes. Paul Engin Mm. Katie Ghidiu And they're kind of more similar, um, to, like, food you would have at home, but, like, the astronaut version. You know how astronauts- Paul Engin Yeah, like freeze-dried Katie Ghidiu ... in space- Speaker 4 Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... is, like, freeze-dried. And so they're kind of like that. Um, but they're very expensive, and also you can't find them everywhere. And so most people default, on a long trail like this, to what you can buy in, like, a small grocery store or gas station. And so I would eat a lot of bars, like Clif Bars, like fig bars, lot of cookies, chips, um, a lot of wraps l- with, like, cheese or peanut butter or honey- Speaker 4 Mm Katie Ghidiu ... like, for lunch. Um, and then for dinner, like, some of the most popular meals- ... which I know people are, they're gonna be like, "What?" Um, are, like, ra- they're called ramen bombs. So you buy ramen, and then you buy dehydrated potatoes, and you, like, make your ramen, and then you add potatoes for, like, more sustenance. Paul Engin Sustenance. Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. And sometimes you'll add cheese if you're, if you have access to it. Paul Engin Oh, all right. Well, I used to live off of ramen, so. Speaker 4 Ra- but not ramen bombs. Paul Engin No, not ramen bombs. Katie Ghidiu I feel like there's a lot of overlap with kind of, like, unhealthy college- ... eating. Speaker 4 And, and I thought ramen bombs were just the nickname that you and y- your, your h- uh, the people you were hiking with called it. And then when you were on trail this year, some guy's like, "Yeah, I'm having a ramen bomb." Like, it's, it's a well-known thing in the trail community? Katie Ghidiu Yes. Speaker 4 Okay. Katie Ghidiu But I will say- Paul Engin Mm-hmm Katie Ghidiu ... technology has made... Um, there were fancier meals that I put together, too, and a lot of it was 'cause I could look at what, like, other people had made on their backpacking trips. Speaker 4 Right. Katie Ghidiu And they would post on YouTube or, you know, online somewhere. And so I did get some other recipes that were slightly healthier. Paul Engin They're trail foodies, and they take pictures. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin And they... Yeah. Um, so what are you cooking with then? What is the, like, like, uh, is it fi- like, you know how to start a fire, or do you- Katie Ghidiu No. And actually, out West, you can't start- Paul Engin Oh Katie Ghidiu ... campfires for a lot of- Paul Engin Right Katie Ghidiu ... the trail because the risk of fire is so high m- um, during the summer months. But you can use a small stove. And so they are... I actually brought my stove with me, and it is, uh, it's maybe inch and a half. Paul Engin What? That's a stove? Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Speaker 4 Yeah, hold that up to the- Paul Engin Oh, my- Speaker 4 ... camera Katie Ghidiu Let me open it. And it will- Speaker 4 So this is, it opens three times as large- Paul Engin This is- Speaker 4 ... when you open it Paul Engin ... this is, like- Katie Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... uh, this is, like, a, a cl- like, I don't... How do you explain? This is so small. This is a stove? What? What do you... Is this the base? Katie Ghidiu The other side is. So you buy, um, small canisters of- Paul Engin Oh, this is the- Katie Ghidiu ... yeah, like gas Paul Engin ... I see. Katie Ghidiu And you screw it on, and then you light it. Paul Engin Oh, my. Speaker 4 Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Um, and your pot sits on top. Paul Engin That is cra- this is like a small sprinkler. Like, a, a teeny- Speaker 4 It does look like a sprinkler. Or the ones, like, in, in buildings when you look up and you see- Paul Engin Yes Speaker 4 ... the sprinkler. Katie Ghidiu That is what it looks like. Speaker 4 Yeah. Paul Engin Yeah. It's so small. I mean- Speaker 4 And when it folds up, it's, like, half that size. Paul Engin I thought... It was funny 'cause when I saw it next to you, I was like, "What? Is that, like, a shoe?" Like, like, this is the burner. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin So then you carry propane or- Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm Paul Engin ... for the... Okay. Katie Ghidiu It's, like, the little... You can get, like, four-ounce or eight-ounce little canisters. And then when they run out, you bu- just buy a new one- Paul Engin Okay Katie Ghidiu ... as you go through towns. Paul Engin That's crazy. Speaker 4 And they're efficient, too. Can you walk us through, like, the evolution of stoves? Katie Ghidiu I can try. I don't- Speaker 4 Okay. Katie Ghidiu Um, I mean, so when I first thought of camping, like car camping, we had, like, a big Coleman, kinda like- Speaker 4 Oh, yeah. A grill Katie Ghidiu ... this mini grill. Speaker 4 Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Which you obviously wouldn't wanna carry- ... on your back into the backcountry. Um, and then when I first started backpacking, the stoves were bigger. Like, they were bigger than this, but so were the- Speaker 4 Propane Katie Ghidiu ... propanes. Like, they were the size of, like, a water, a water bottle. Speaker 4 Yeah. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Um, and you would have to have, like, hoses to connect them. And I think they were less reliable, too, and you'd have to, like, refill your propane. And, um- Speaker 4 Oh, you have to pressurize it, right? It would have a little- Katie Ghidiu You'd have to pressurize it. And so now it's, it's very lightweight and simple. And you can buy the gas canisters in, like, every trail town along the way, every REI. Paul Engin And do they, can they refill it, or do you just get a new one? Are they, they re- reuse, like- Katie Ghidiu There- Paul Engin ... you just recharge it? Katie Ghidiu ... there is a tiny tool you can buy, I did not have one, that connects two canisters. And you can... Like, people would go along the trail and find all the, like, discarded canisters with, like, just a little bit of gas in. And you could, like, transfer it all into one. Paul Engin Oh. Speaker 4 I didn't know that. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. And then they're recyclable. Speaker 4 That sounds dangerous. Katie Ghidiu It does sound... Yeah, so- Speaker 4 And, and also it's not like there's canisters littering the field Dave Ghidiu It's like when you're, you're in town, then people have discarded like- Paul Engin Oh, yeah Dave Ghidiu ... in the hiker box. Like, w- they're not just walking down the trail and see like- Katie Ghidiu Right Dave Ghidiu ... oh, someone left a canister there. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. The cool thing about the trail is that every town really supports the hikers that come through. So, like, local businesses or people will set up, like, oasis, o- oasises, oasi - ... for hikers to come through, where you can go and, like, hang out and shower and charge all your electronics. And often they have things that other hikers discard. They'll have, like, a box called the hiker box. And so you can go- Paul Engin Oh Katie Ghidiu ... if there might be something you need, and before you go buy it, check the hiker box, 'cause sometimes people have to get off-trail 'cause they, you know, need to go- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... home or they get hurt, or- Paul Engin And they just leave it for someone else. Katie Ghidiu And they just leave it for someone else. Paul Engin Oh, that's cool. That's kind of a cool community thing to do. Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Paul Engin Um... Dave Ghidiu And, and like hitchhiking. If, if you're, if you live in a town... Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression, if you live in a town where the trail kind of goes through, people will stop all the time and pick up hikers and drive them into town and stuff. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Really the way to get to town is hitchhiking. So again, sorry, uh, mom and dad. Paul Engin Oh, boy. Katie Ghidiu But... Paul Engin Uh, all right. So, uh, the, uh, views on the show are those of the host and guests- ... and do not necessarily reflect... Um, yeah, so that's interesting. So as far as, um, cookware, do you carry pots and pans, or are they... Like, what is the... Like, you know, again, I pictured what Dave was saying at the beginning. You hook on a big metal pan in your back and- Katie Ghidiu I have... I carry one pot, and it's about the size of your mug that you have here, your Finger Lakes, um- Paul Engin Okay Katie Ghidiu ... coffee mug. And it's made out of, uh, titanium, so it's very lightweight. It's a few ounces. Paul Engin And is it retractable or is it just a flat... But it's very light. Katie Ghidiu And it's made to fit the gas canister. So, like, you can have your pot, and you fit your gas canister, and you fit your stove in there, and, like, your- Paul Engin Oh Katie Ghidiu ... lighter. So it's all kind of in one compact- Paul Engin One- Katie Ghidiu ... item. Paul Engin That's nice. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin That's nice. Um, all right. Dave Ghidiu I, I, what about headlamps? Katie Ghidiu So those have changed also. Paul Engin Do you need them? Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Actually, yeah. What did people use before headlamps? Katie Ghidiu I don't know. I think you didn't hike after dark. Dave Ghidiu Oh, you didn't carry- Katie Ghidiu Maybe Dave Ghidiu ... like a flashlight or something? Katie Ghidiu I, I didn't hike before- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... there were headlamps. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Like, I think... But it's a big safety feature to have headlamps because you can... Like, if you need to get out of the trail in the dark or you're out there later than you think, you need to be able to see to, like, um, get out of the woods. And so a lot of people use their cell phones as, like, flashlights, but that's not really recommended because, again, if you run out of your battery life- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... it kind of drains it very fast. And so there's these very lightweight, um, headlamps that you wear, you know, around your head and it, it illuminates the path ahead of you. Um, the biggest change I've seen since I've been hiking is that you used to have batteries that you would have to, like- Paul Engin Replace Katie Ghidiu ... carry extra batteries, replace them, um, make sure you have enough, make sure you have backups. And now they're all chargeable through the same cord that you would, like, charge your laptop or your phone. Paul Engin Mm-hmm. Katie Ghidiu Um, and so on the trail, I would carry a battery bank that, um, I would use to charge all of my devices. Paul Engin Uh, okay. And that, that battery bank is what? Your phone, your GPS, whatever- Katie Ghidiu My watch Paul Engin ... your watch. Whatever you need. Um, okay. And then as far as the headlamps, I assume their brightness is probably... Like, you know, I use my phone and you can adjust the spread of the light, but it's not, like, very bright. I assume these are, like... Like, they illuminate pretty wide and bright, or you can adjust that brightness, or is it an ignorance app that you control it? Katie Ghidiu It's not. Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu That would be cool. It's, it's... Right now, it's still buttons on the lamp itself, and there's different settings, yes. So you can do brighter and, like, more direct, or you can do a more diffused light. There's also a red light setting. So if you're around other people in, like, a camp at night and you need just a little bit of light to, like- Paul Engin Oh, so you don't disturb them. Katie Ghidiu So you don't disturb them. Dave Ghidiu And they're all LED, so those light bulbs don't burn out- Paul Engin Or- Dave Ghidiu ... and the batteries last a lot longer Paul Engin ... or heat up. Right? Dave Ghidiu Or heat up. Yeah. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Correct. Dave Ghidiu I remember a headlamp back when, you know, 20 years ago, it would have a giant battery pack on the back of your head, and then it had like two giant lamps on the front for, like, one for long distance and one for up close. And it... The thing weighed probably, like, two or three pounds. But now you're talking ounces again, right? Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin That's crazy. All right. So what are... Um, we talked a little bit about some of the apps, but, um, what, what apps or, uh, information do you need or should you use for, for a hike like this? Katie Ghidiu Like, what's my app stack- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... for hiking? Dave Ghidiu App stack. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu So the one non-negotiable was FarOut. So that's the one that replaced my mapping, my, like, paper map, and we've already talked about it. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Um, it, but it really has transformed the access that people have to long trails like this, I think. Um- Paul Engin And that's offline too, right? Katie Ghidiu Yes. Paul Engin You download it so you don't have to be connected to the internet if- Katie Ghidiu Correct Paul Engin ... you're using it. Katie Ghidiu Yep. Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu It's offline. Um, and yeah, and we talked about some of the benefits of just, like, the culture of sharing information that might be helpful to the people behind you. Um, the other ones that I found useful were... So my other mapping ones were CalTopo and Gaia, and that's if... FarOut is very focused on the trail you're on, but I always wanted to be able to get out of a situation if I needed to, like, if I was deep- Paul Engin Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... in the backcountry. And so those other maps added additional features like- Um, more detailed trails that weren't the Pacific Crest Trail. So if I needed a side trail to get out, um, those had that. But they also had overlays. Like CalTopo, you could overlay cell phone coverage based on the different providers. Speaker 5 Oh. Katie Ghidiu And so I learned that partway through the trail. Thank you, Chinook. Um, that was one of my hiking buddies. Speaker 5 Friend of the pod. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Speaker 5 So that's... So and just so I'm clear, that's so like you don't have reception, but you need reception so you can, you know where to go so you can then get a signal. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. And I would use it... So also, I w- I would know, I don't have any cell service right now, but maybe tomorrow, like, I'll be able to check in with Dave and just use my cell phone and send him pictures or something. Speaker 5 Right. Katie Ghidiu Um, and it would also overlay past wildfires and current ones. So you could look... Part of what's shaping the Pacific Crest Trail right now is- is the fires out west. Um, and current fires are, you have to kind of know where they are, and are trails closing, and be aware of it. But you also hike through these immense burned areas from past fires where it's- it's, like, apocalyptic. Speaker 5 Oh. Katie Ghidiu Like, there are, there... It's just, like, standing burned, dead, like, what used to be trees for miles and miles and miles. Um, and you don't wanna camp there because there's a big risk of, um, if it's windy, like, the trees are, they're, the f- former trees are very unstable. Speaker 5 Mm-hmm. Katie Ghidiu So they, you don't wanna camp there 'cause they could fall on you. Speaker 5 Right. Katie Ghidiu So you would plan out where you would camp. Speaker 5 Okay. Katie Ghidiu Um- Speaker 5 And you would camp based on Wi-Fi too or no? Katie Ghidiu Sometimes. Speaker 5 Okay. Katie Ghidiu Or not Wi-Fi, like- Speaker 5 Oh Katie Ghidiu ... like cell phone coverage. Speaker 5 Cell phone. Yeah. Sorry. Katie Ghidiu Um, I- ... I did sometimes. But more often, it would be, like, what is a good condition for camping? Speaker 5 Oh. Katie Ghidiu So, like, does it have a nice view? Is it near water? Like, does it have... Um, you try and use already created camp sites to prevent, um, like, impact on the natural areas. Speaker 5 Okay. Katie Ghidiu So you would try and look for where there's existing camp sites. So FarOut and then those other mapping tools. Um, I also used Watch Duty and Cal Fire, and those are, like, up-to-date fire fighting efforts in the west. Speaker 5 Mm-hmm. Katie Ghidiu Um, and- Speaker 5 And- and that's a real, f- like, you need to be aware of that stuff, right? Katie Ghidiu Yes. Speaker 5 Okay. Katie Ghidiu And those are used by the people living out there too. It's not just for hiking. Speaker 5 Right. Katie Ghidiu Like, you keep track of what- what the wildfire activity is going on. Speaker 5 Yeah, 'cause they put, like, evacuation alerts and, like, "Hey, y- you- you might need to evacuate." One of the things I really liked about it is you could see, I think it was on the- the Cal Fire, you can see the planes and the helicopters that are dropping water, like, right on the app in real time 'cause they have the transponders. So you can see where all these, um, efforts- Katie Ghidiu I- Speaker 5 ... are going. Katie Ghidiu Okay. Um, and then those were, like, my major ones. But I also used, like, I journaled on my phone. I read on my phone. At one point, I started out carrying a Kindle also, or, like- Speaker 5 Mm Katie Ghidiu ... people would carry paper books. Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Katie Ghidiu And then it's just, like, too heavy, so. Speaker 5 You just, everything on one device. Katie Ghidiu Everything on one device. Speaker 5 Yeah. Katie Ghidiu So the phone was all of that. Speaker 5 Yeah, I think, uh, Samsung has foldables now, so now you can, uh- Katie Ghidiu That's true Speaker 5 ... Katie Ghidiu That'll be next time. Speaker 5 And maybe iPhone will come out with one. We'll see. Dave Ghidiu Someday. Speaker 5 Someday. Oh. Dave Ghidiu I mean, Go- Google has one. Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah. All right. So we're- we're moving on to our last segment here. Dave Ghidiu Yeah, I do, I do just wanna name, Katie, I think earlier today you were talking about using Reddit and YouTube or may- maybe just researching 'cause it, you said it took you, like, a few years to... W- was Reddit and YouTube really the- the best places, or w- where else are people, like, posting about the trail, or where you, can you gain intel as you're preparing? Katie Ghidiu I think those were the big ones. Um, there's a pretty active hiker community on Reddit around each of the trails and- and other ones around lightweight backpacking. Um, so that was a great place to go for intel. And then I really got interested in doing it by seeing people's videos on YouTube. Um, there's people who will film the entire experience and put out, like, weekly YouTube videos- Speaker 5 Oh, wow Katie Ghidiu ... following them, um, which is pretty incredible to think about all the gear that they carried. And, like, they would, um... Some of them had editors back home, so they would have to have a way to, like, send- Speaker 5 Oh, yeah Katie Ghidiu ... their footage back- Speaker 5 Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... and then it would get edited and uploaded. So that's what got me interested in doing the trail, and you could kind of get a sneak peek of what it- Speaker 5 Mm Katie Ghidiu ... might be like. Speaker 5 Oh, that's cool. I think we used to do that too, just kind of preview before you go- Katie Ghidiu Mm-hmm Speaker 5 ... so you, you know what to expect. Um, so besides technology, um, I just wanna bust Dave's chops. Um, is this something that you would train for before- Dave Ghidiu Oh, yes Speaker 5 ... you go into, like, a- a three-week hike in the Pacific Crest? Is that something you would train for, or would you just go cold turkey? I mean, like- Katie Ghidiu I, I mean, I would recommend- ... training for it. You, I think will have a better experience. Speaker 5 Yeah? Katie Ghidiu Yeah, you're less likely to come down with some of those initial aches and pains. Speaker 5 Yeah. Dave, what do you think about that? I'm just curious. Uh- Dave Ghidiu I, I wouldn't know. Speaker 5 You wouldn't know? Oh, okay. Dave Ghidiu Like I said before, I did two mile long walks- ... before I'd attempted, and I made it through. Speaker 5 Two miles versus how many miles? Uh- Katie Ghidiu Our longest day was 27 miles. Dave Ghidiu And so I, yes, uh, in case you didn't listen to the episode, folks, I did get snapping hip syndrome. I thought my trip was over on, like, day two. And then on day four, I thought my trip was over because of my quad and my knee. Speaker 5 Yeah. And luckily Claude was there to, uh, be your- Dave Ghidiu Yes, and Katie. Speaker 5 And Katie. Dave Ghidiu And- And for both of them, Claude was like, "You should have a pair of trekking poles." So that, they're like- Speaker 5 Oh Dave Ghidiu ... it was like, "Trekking poles reduce 28% of impact," or something like that. And I was like, "All right." Speaker 5 All right. Another benefit of trekking poles. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Speaker 5 All right. So, um, do you wanna start this off? Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Is there any piece of gear where the old version was actually better? Can you think of any? Katie Ghidiu I don't know. The one where I think it hasn't changed are sunglasses. Like, I wore sunglasses every day. Those really haven't changed, I don't think. Paul Engin Yeah. Dave Ghidiu That's true. Paul Engin I will say, though, the Oakley... They're gonna- Dave Ghidiu Oh my gosh Paul Engin ... they're gonna come out with the displays, so you don't even need your phone and you can track the- Dave Ghidiu Oh, the far-out map would be right on the glasses. Paul Engin Yeah, everything would be on the... Predictive. I don't know. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin Not there yet, but- Katie Ghidiu That would be pretty cool Dave Ghidiu That would be wild to carry, wear those for, like, 2,600 miles. Paul Engin I mean, 'cause you're wearing glasses anyway, and then you can... You're, I hit the mic this time. I'm doing the same thing with the trekking poles. Dave Ghidiu With the trekking poles. Katie Ghidiu You gotta go like- Paul Engin The trekking poles. The trekking poles are causing havoc for the students. Dave Ghidiu Yeah, they're, they are dangerous. They're pointy. Paul Engin Um, but yeah, because then you don't have to... You can just say, you know, "Hey, glasses, do blah, blah, blah, blah- ... and give you the display, and you just keep going. Um, there's definitely something there, there, there. Uh, so, um, what do, what do you think is the biggest change in the last 20 years as far as hiking goes? Like, what's the biggest thing that you were like... I- is it the app? Is it the water? Like, that water thing is pretty amazing. Um, but is there something that stands out to you that you're... Or is it the shoes? I mean, I don't even... Like, the Gore-Tex or the, um, trail shoes. Katie Ghidiu That's a good question. I think broadly, probably just the ability to communicate from the trail to people at home. Dave Ghidiu Mm. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu So whether it's, like, your safety device, like my Garmin, or through, right, my s- cell phone, um, and having more and more cell phone coverage access and, and satellite access. I think if you were hiking the trail 20 years ago, you had to wait till you get to a town, and then you would have to find a phone and call- Paul Engin Like a payphone, yeah Katie Ghidiu ... and, like, call your spouse or family and be like, "Still, I'm still here." Dave Ghidiu Oh, wow. Katie Ghidiu "I'm in, I'm in the town of whatever." Um, and so we were able to communicate every day on the trail, and so I think that honestly changes the prospect of doing it in that you can still be in contact with your family. Paul Engin Yeah, that is a, that is a big thing. I, I wasn't even thinking about, like, back in the day before cell phones, we used to survive with absolutely no communication. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin I mean, I know we see a lot of videos of this, but it's like, "Yep, go out. Come back when the- Katie Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... when the streetlights come on." Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin And it's like, "I made it back, Mom." This is, like, a bigger version of that. Um- Katie Ghidiu It is Paul Engin ... but I always worry about that, 'cause that's why, that's why I asked you. Do you get tracked? Like, is there something... Like, I just picture going into the woods and being like, "Uh, no, no cellphone, no connection. Like, what do I do?" You know, um, but you always carry a paper map, no matter what. Or not anymore? Katie Ghidiu Uh, I started out doing that, and then I never once used it. And so I no longer carry... And on the- Paul Engin Because you have that battery pack just in case you're out of power. Katie Ghidiu Correct. B- but legally, I'm not recommending that for anyone else. Paul Engin And is this sol- Do you... Is there solar involved any, any of this? Like, solar battery? Sorry, I digress. Sorry. Katie Ghidiu There are. You can bring portable solar, like, charging units. Paul Engin Mm-hmm. Katie Ghidiu They're pretty small, and you can fit them on the back of your pack or, like, set them up on the ground. I did not experiment with any of them. Paul Engin Okay. Katie Ghidiu I just carried enough power to get me to the next town. Paul Engin Next town. Okay. Very good. Dave Ghidiu Uh, so we have about five minutes left, and, um, I, I think kinda this is, uh, an interesting question. You've now watched two domains get reshaped, like hiking gear. You've lived that for the last 20 years, but also academic libraries. Uh, so can you just... Are there any parallels? Like, what's the same about how it's happened? Katie Ghidiu I think s- I see a similarity in that almost every single thing has changed for both domains, but most people on the outside wouldn't know. So the work that people do in academic libraries now is so different than it was 20 years ago, and most of it is around using technology and helping other... helping people learn how to use technology in the library context. Dave Ghidiu Mm-hmm. Katie Ghidiu Um, similarly to how hiking has totally changed because there's access to information and resources and better gear so that people can get out there who, who wouldn't wanna carry a 75-pound pack and have map and compass skills. Dave Ghidiu Mm. Katie Ghidiu Um, and I think one thing that has really impressed me in both domains is the r- how a lot of it has come around through these, like, small innovations. So in hiking, a lot of what is now mainstream came out of hikers who had an idea, would go in their garage and make, like, a new iteration, and then eventually other hikers wanted it, and so they would start manufacturing it in, like, small levels- Dave Ghidiu Interesting Katie Ghidiu ... and then it would grow up, and then... or grow and expand, and then now everyone's using it. Um, and I think in libraries I've seen a lot of the same things around, like, building family-friendly spaces in libraries, um, adding little student-friendly features so that they become, like, hubs of informal learning and connection and collaboration rather than the quiet, like, study places that we thought of when we were growing up. Paul Engin Yeah. Yeah, I think that that is really interesting, because I didn't know anything about, like, the technology for hiking. Um, but there's a lot going on that you're not aware of, and in the library it's the same thing. Like, I just look even at our library, and we have different spaces for different things, and there's a lot going on in that, and it's like a, a learning thing. They're determining what people want, and then they're adjusting and modifying and, um... And I think that's a really nice segue, uh, to end the episode. Dave Ghidiu All right. Yeah. Paul Engin Um, do you have another question, or is there something we might have mentioned- Dave Ghidiu Yeah, anything- Paul Engin ... or not, something that we didn't ask? Katie Ghidiu I don't think so. But I, I love the... Just to end on, I love that parallel that every domain or every field is, has gone through change because of technology, and sometimes it's so small. And because it's not an app or a phone- Dave Ghidiu Mm. Yeah Katie Ghidiu ... you might think it's not technology change, but it is. Like a new water filter is, is a change in technology. A new piece of fabric is technology change. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Katie Ghidiu And so I think whether you're in, like, a den- a dental hygienist or you're in HVAC or you're, um, a humanities... You know, you're in the humanities, you have those changes in the different aspects of your role. Dave Ghidiu Interesting. Paul Engin Yeah. Dave Ghidiu So that's what people need to think about. Paul Engin The, the change in, in what they're doing- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... and- Dave Ghidiu Or, or maybe how that behavior has changed. Like you had said, some of those things change behavior, like the family s- um, rooms and the libraries has changed behavior, or the, the way that, um, Far Out has made it a little bit easier for people to access it. So interesting. It's all related. Paul Engin Yeah. I like that. It is behavior. It's a different... Sometimes it's, uh, adjusting that to whatever area you're, you're working in or you're interested in pursuing. Um, well, thank you so much for coming in and talking about this. Katie Ghidiu Yeah. Paul Engin It was eye-opening for me. Um, I'm still not sure I'm gonna do a- ... a 10-day, uh, tenting experience and then hopefully come to a town, but- Dave Ghidiu Well, I think what we will do is- ... that we are going to throw a challenge to your daughters to take you out on a camping trip. Paul Engin Oh, boy. Dave Ghidiu And then we will, uh- Paul Engin Film it and, uh- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Film the whole thing with your Meta glasses and- Paul Engin It'll be like the Blair Witch Project. We don't know what happened to Dad. Uh, the bear was coming, and we just told him to run that way- Dave Ghidiu Yeah Paul Engin ... 'cause we can run faster than him. Dave Ghidiu Well, thank you so much- Paul Engin So- Dave Ghidiu ... Katie, for coming in. Paul Engin Yeah. Katie Ghidiu Thank you for having me. Paul Engin Thank you. Um, my name is Paul Engen. Dave Ghidiu And I'm Dave Gadu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to smash that like and subscribe, that love and subscribe button so you never miss an episode. Let's be careful out there, folks. Paul Engin Is it love now? Is it- Dave Ghidiu Uh- Paul Engin Is it not like? It's just... Oh, there is a love. There is a heart. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. Yeah. Paul Engin Absolutely. Dave Ghidiu Like and love. Paul Engin That's right. Dave Ghidiu Don't be stingy. Paul Engin And share it with a friend or colleague. Dave Ghidiu Or... Paul Engin Or enemy. Dave Ghidiu Thank you. Paul Engin Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and thanks for looking through the immersive lens with us. Dave Ghidiu This episode was engineered by Hugh Laird. Paul Engin Um, thank you, Hugh, for coming in today. Dave Ghidiu Thank you. Paul Engin And, uh, Jeff, thanks for, uh, not... I don't know. Dave Ghidiu For not being here? Is that what you're gonna say? Paul Engin Yeah. Dave Ghidiu Okay. Paul Engin Uh, recorded at Finger Lakes Community College Podcast Studios, located in beautiful Canandaigua, New York, in the heart of the Finger Lakes region, offering more than 55 degrees, certificates, microcredentials, and workforce training programs. Dave Ghidiu Including the, uh, AI integration specialist microcredential starting this fall. Thank you to public relations and communications, marketing, and the FLX AI Hub. Paul Engin Eager to delve into passion, discover exciting and immersive opportunities at www. We're back to flcc.hu-. Dave Ghidiu Yeah, 'cause Hugh's in the room. Paul Engin Oh, Hugh, you're in the room. You have a URL. Dave Ghidiu Yeah. As part of our mission at, at FLCC, we are connected to making education accessible, innovative, and aligned with the needs of both learners and employers. Paul Engin All right. This is an important one, all right? Don't hitchhike. Uh, what was the other one? We, uh... Oh, always carry a map. Uh, the views expressed- ... in the podcast are those of the host and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official position of Finger Lakes Community College. Dave Ghidiu They... I think they always recommend the maps. Paul Engin They always... Yes. Dave Ghidiu Uh, music by Dan from Pixabay. Paul Engin This is The Immersive Lens. Thanks again for coming in. Dave Ghidiu Thank you. Katie Ghidiu Thank you. Paul Engin Thanks to you. Dave Ghidiu Thanks to you.
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