In this episode of The Immersive Lens, hosts Paul and Dave explore emerging technologies impacting the workforce and media creation, beginning with "Project Iceberg," an open-source MIT database that analyzes AI displacement risks by zip code. Dave notes that their local area of Canandaigua shows a high "disruption scale" rating of 73.3% for jobs in management and sales, prompting a discussion on using data to identify safe haven careers. The hosts also discuss Meta’s "SAM", a research tool that isolates objects within images to potentially create 3D models for game design, a capability they compare to a modern, automated version of rotoscoping.
Then they dig in to the question "Does Size Matter?" by tracing the evolution of display technology from 4:3 CRT monitors to high-definition 16:9 screens and the current "mobile-first" development landscape driven by smartphones and foldables. The hosts examine the psychological effects of this shift, citing studies which suggest that viewing content on smaller screens reduces emotional engagement and attentiveness while increasing self-absorption and "psychological distancing". They conclude by discussing design strategies to mitigate these issues, such as Google's shift to sans-serif fonts to enhance readability on small devices.
Key Topics
Project Iceberg and Localized AI Disruption Data: An open-source database originating from MIT that analyzes workforce exposure to AI disruption down to the granularity of specific zip codes. Dave highlighted that their local area of Canandaigua, NY, holds a "disruption scale" rating of 73.3%, with jobs in management and sales being the most vulnerable to AI displacement.
Meta’s "SAM" and the Future of Asset Creation: Meta's "Segment Anything Model" (SAM), a research tool that allows users to easily isolate objects within an image, is like a modern, automated version of the "rotoscoping" animation technique used in the 1980s "Take on Me" music video. Paul and Dave predict that this technology will eventually allow game developers to photograph physical objects, such as a cup or a model airplane, and instantly convert them into 3D digital assets for video games, eliminating the need to model them from scratch.
The Psychological Impact of Screen Size: Screen size significantly influences how users process information - viewing content on small screens (5 inches or smaller) results in reduced attentiveness and lower levels of emotional engagement compared to larger displays. The discussion revealed that the scrolling nature of mobile devices contributes to "psychological distancing" and "self-absorption," potentially making news consumption feel like "disjointed pieces of reality" rather than a contextualized whole.
Design Adaptations for Mobile Readability and Retention: To accommodate the shift from desktop to "mobile-first" development, companies like Google famously removed serifs from their logos and fonts because sans-serif typefaces are easier to read on small, lower-resolution screens. The conversation also touched on experimental typography designed to aid cognition.
Mentioned in the Episode
References
- Project Iceberg [MIT]
- Interactive Project Iceberg Visualization
- Meta SAM
- Meta AI Demos
- Take on Me by A-ha (rotoscoping)
- Rochester's Tinseltown to unveil IMAX 70mm projector, enhancing local movie experience
- Final scene from The Deer Hunter - 16:9 version
- The $2,900 Samsung Galaxy Z TriFold Phone Sells Out Online in Minutes
- I've been wearing the Meta Ray-Ban Display smart glasses for 24 hours — here's what I like (and hate)
- Meta Quest
- Applies Vision Pro
- Sans forgetica font
- Clean and clear: making reading easier with Lexend
Further Reading
- Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business
- Effects of content and viewing distance on the preferred size of moving images
- The Psychology of Responsive Design: How Screen Sizes Affect User Behavior
- Smartphone display size can cause distortions in perceptual estimates of size
- Screen size matters: Consumers less attentive to news content on small screens
- Are Smaller Screens Making Us More Self-Absorbed?
Transcript
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Paul Engin: I shouldn't have had all that crap in my... Dave Ghidiu: I know, but they're so good. Paul Engin: You know when he's like a DJ and he tips over all those CDs? Like when... when I heard that noise, whatever he did in the booth, that's all I thought of. Paul Engin: Welcome to the Immersive Lens, the podcast exploring the technologies reshaping how we live, work, and learn. From AI and virtual reality to creative media and design, we're diving into the tools and ideas shaping our connected world. Join us as we uncover the people and ideas driving the next wave of interactive experiences. This is the Immersive Lens. So Dave, how are you doing? Dave Ghidiu: Doing great. How are you doing? Paul Engin: Good, good, good. Anything uh, popping up in your feeds or something interesting that's... Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. So I... I got to share with you this... this Project Iceberg. Have... Have you seen it? Paul Engin: Nope, I have not. Dave Ghidiu: So Project Iceberg came out of MIT and it's an interactive database. So they look at, and with granularity of zip codes, they look at all the different jobs and careers in those zip codes and they tell you where the hidden AI exposure is and where, um, you're protected, like a safe haven from AI. So for instance, I'm looking at the zip code for Canandaigua, which is where the global headquarters of the Immersive Lens is, and management is the number one by far, uh, job in the sector. Um, followed by sales and then also followed by business and financial. And... and it lists I don't know, 20 or 30 different, uh, types of jobs and then it has a workforce exposure and it gives you a rating. So we are 73.3% on the disruption scale out of 100. Paul Engin: So that means that we're... we're pretty high for being disrupted? Dave Ghidiu: But this site and this data also gives you all the jobs that are a safe haven. And it kind of really just, if you're into workforce development, which we are, this points a needle in the direction that perhaps we should be headed. Paul Engin: So wait, what's the URL on this? Dave Ghidiu: Uh, the data is... it's not visualized. MIT didn't visualize it. I wrote a visualizer for myself so I can see it and... and I'll... I'll... we'll be publishing it at our website. Paul Engin: Okay. Dave Ghidiu: But for right now you have to do the heavy lifting on it yourself. Paul Engin: Okay. And what... so it's called ICE... What is it? Project Iceberg? Dave Ghidiu: Project Iceberg. Paul Engin: And it's... you said so it started at MIT for the... the data collection? Dave Ghidiu: Well they... they did a lot of thinking about it and they, uh, they actually teamed up with some... some other organizations that do like labor studies. So this is just, uh, an interesting way. They... they did the... the Python scripts and everything so it kind of compiles everything for you. You just need a way to visualize it because the data is so rich that they can't have one single answer for it. So I kind of picked and chose the... the data that I wanted to look at. Paul Engin: Oh, that's great. And then you said you're going to put this up so we'll be able to actually check it out? Dave Ghidiu: Yeah, it'll be in the show notes. Paul Engin: Okay, that's great. That's really cool concept. And this is all open source because it's MIT or uh...? Dave Ghidiu: It is open source and it is on, uh, MIT. Paul Engin: Yeah, cuz uh, I don't know cuz I thought MIT has their own like... they have the MIT license. Dave Ghidiu: Licenses. Yeah. They don't necessarily publish everything under the MIT license. That's a very permissive license for software that's basically like, you can do whatever you want with it but don't knock on our door if it screws things up for you. Paul Engin: So uh, if something goes wrong with the visualization can I knock on your door Dave or...? Dave Ghidiu: Every single piece of software I ever post has MIT license on it. I'm indemnified. All right. So I told you something cool. Paul Engin: Yeah, you tell me something cool. Um, so there's two Meta things that I'm... I'm really interested in. Uh, the first one is a Meta SAM. Um, it's a web-based platform that, um, I think it's just like testing right now but if you go to like ai.meta.com/sam... Dave Ghidiu: SAM. Sam. Paul Engin: Yeah. Um, you can kind of see the research they're doing. And some of these things have already been done in Adobe products to some extent, like object selection. So, um, what they're trying to do is make it really easy to isolate objects in a photo and then do things like create outlines, remove it. Um, I don't know if you remember the old school like, uh, rotoscoping techniques for animation where you would have a video and you draw around the video and then go to the next frame draw around it? Dave Ghidiu: Oh, it's what they used for Snow White back in the day. To create like realistic motion. Paul Engin: What about that video from the 80s? That music video... was it Take... Take... Oh, Radio Killed... No. Take Me... Dave Ghidiu: Oh I know the song you're talking about. But that... but that was like animation. That was... Paul Engin: It looked like... maybe that's rotoscoping? Dave Ghidiu: Yes, that was rotoscoping. Actually that's good. All right. You got to find out who cuz now I'm all... Jeff? Do you know who that was? It was... Jeff Kidd: Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. Take... Take on Me. Paul Engin: Yeah, that's exactly what rotoscope... So go check out Take on Me and you'll see what rotoscoping is. Um, but the uh... it makes it simple. So you can upload an image and, um, you can click on an item on the image. So like if I took a picture of this and then I, um, clicked on this cup, all I'd have to do is click on the cup and then it can either remove it, isolate it, or make it a 3D object. Dave Ghidiu: So what... what practical purposes that have for someone in your line of work? Paul Engin: So, um, right now I don't know other than just playing with it. There's no real download mechanism or anything I can really export from what they're... because right now it's just research. But the goal would be something like for 3D would be like, "Oh this is great, I need to... I need a cup that says FLCC in my 3D scene." And rather than me having to do a full 3D model of this, I could literally just click it, it creates a 3D model, and then I can download it and then place that model in my scene. And then now I don't have to model it. Dave Ghidiu: Oh. So, um, and again I think this is going to evolve too. So if I want to make a video game I could turn a picture of that cup into a 3D object? Paul Engin: Yes. Yes. And if... Yeah. So like, I know that you're doing a lot of game development. And so if you are, you might even be able to draw out... if you can picture an airplane. Dave Ghidiu: Okay. Paul Engin: Or if there's a little model airplane you buy from Matchbox or something... much more likely to do that than draw an airplane. You could take a picture of it with your phone, upload it, touch it, and then it'll be a 3D object that then you can integrate into your game. Dave Ghidiu: That's wild. That's so magic. Paul Engin: But not... again not... not yet. Dave Ghidiu: Okay. Paul Engin: But I think that's the goal. They're getting there. Yeah. I think that it's, uh, it's definitely on its way. Um, and I think they're doing different techniques but the gist here is that it's isolating an object and then after it isolates the object you can do different things with it. And again Adobe products has this. Most of the Adobe products has a rotoscoping technology and object selection removal and all of that stuff. But this is kind of just standalone. Dave Ghidiu: So you don't need an Adobe and it like puts it in the hands of like idiots like me who can't use any of those Adobe products. So... Paul Engin: Uh, I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying anything. Dave Ghidiu: Dave, can I share one more thing? So I... I was vibe coding. Remember vibe coding is like when you type in text and you get a software out of it and then you're like, "Oh I don't like this." And you type it in and it will make the changes whatever? So I knew I wanted to have a YouTube video in... in this software like a tutorial or whatever and I didn't have the video. So I was like, "For right now... to... to AI, for right now just put a YouTube video in there as a placeholder and then I'll replace it when I'm ready." And it did. And I was like, "Oh that's great." So I was going through the software and I was like, "I wonder what video it put in there." And it Rick Rolled me. AI put in the Rick Roll video. Paul Engin: Oh no. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. The... the bots have come alive and they have a sense of humor. Paul Engin: Oh that's awesome. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. Paul Engin: Oh so, uh, what did you... did you end up... Is that what you left... did you leave that in there? Dave Ghidiu: Uh, for right now it's a placeholder. It's a place... So if someone watches it they're going to get Rick Rolled by their professor. Paul Engin: Correct. Awesome. That's a way to roll. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. U Rick roll. To Rick Roll. Uh, so hey, I have a question for you, Dave. Paul Engin: Bring it. Dave Ghidiu: The question of the day is: does size matter? Paul Engin: ...and you're talking about screens on devices, correct? Dave Ghidiu: Oh yes. Yes. I'm sorry. Oh jeez, I guess I should have clarified that. So does size matter... uh, I do know that in Rochester we will be getting one of the only few IMAX screens, like true IMAXs in the world. There's only like 30 true IMAXs. There's like 1500 IMAX screens but... but we will be getting the true IMAX. Paul Engin: So what's that... what does that mean... what do you mean by true IMAX? Dave Ghidiu: It's... it's custom made by IMAX and it has... it can support the film and the D and all that stuff. Paul Engin: Oh that's awesome. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah that's great. Yeah. So I think that when we talk about this screen size, I, you know, I... I think it's been an evolution and it's interesting because, um, when we talk about screen size I think we can look at it from how we consume content, how we create content, and you know, um, there's two different avenues and then there's also the passive viewing. But, um, I just wanted to kind of kick in a little history here and maybe you'll get some flashback. Paul Engin: Yeah. Laid it on me. And I... I remember I was in college in the 1900s, last century. So I had... I had what I thought was the biggest TV ever. It was like 24 in and it was like a cube. Dave Ghidiu: Okay. So, uh, we started with the CRT TVs, those big blocky TVs and they had a 4:3 aspect ratio which it... Paul Engin: You said CRT. Is that the cathode ray tube technology? Dave Ghidiu: Yes, absolutely. It's the big, those big chunky heavy ones that you broke your back... Paul Engin: Yeah. Dave Ghidiu: Um, and... and the aspect ratio was a 4:3 aspect ratio. So the more of a square if you can picture that, right? Paul Engin: Yeah, it's close to a square. Dave Ghidiu: Um, and they had the radius corners, so really rounded, you know, corners to it. Um, and so since then there's always been this thing of, you know, if you wanted to see something you would go to a movie theater if you wanted to see it big, or they tried to make bigger TV screens but the bigger the TV screens obviously, um, the heavier it got. Um, at some point obviously we made that transition from that CRT technology to, um, high definition resolution where we started changing the aspect ratio, uh, from that 4:3 to more of a TV aspect ratio of like 16:9. Paul Engin: That's kind of the dominant form factor today. Dave Ghidiu: Yep. So 1080p is the full HD resolution of 1080p. That's 1080 pixels... 1080 points... Paul Engin: Yeah, uh, 1,080 pixels. Dave Ghidiu: Okay. Paul Engin: Um, per inch on the... on the... on the vertical. Dave Ghidiu: Oh. So the, uh, goal here is that TVs are now getting bigger with higher resolution. So smaller pixels and, um, finer detail. So, you know, you 1080 to 2K to 4K. And you know you the... the TV screens are getting smaller and lighter so they can get bigger. Paul Engin: Yeah. And so, um, it's ridiculous how cheap they are too. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah, the price is going down and there's a lot of technologies around it and we're not going to really necessarily talk about the technologies like OLED or anything like that. Um, really the interesting to thing to me is that, um, for the longest time, uh, we try to consume content on the largest screen possible. So, um, we're seeing this evolution of... of screens that are getting bigger and bigger and lighter but then all of a sudden something hits and it's called a... like a phone. And these phones become more and more powerful. And so, um, you know the... the phones are now being used a lot for consuming the same thing we used to consume on the larger TVs, right? So if I want to watch a show—and most people now are watching shows on their phone or on their laptop even versus more than over the air or cable over the TV or over the screen because obviously we have the technology now to support all these streaming services on just about any platform, right? Paul Engin: Mhm. Dave Ghidiu: So... so it's interesting to me to see that, um, we used to push for this larger screen and then now we're okay with the consumption of it on a smaller screen which then led me to thinking about back in the day we used to have to develop, and I'm... I'm going to go in my developer brain right now... Paul Engin: Wait, before you... can I ask you a question? Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. Paul Engin: So we went from real big to real small, but has there been like a microcosm within mobile phones where the screens got a little bit bigger for a while because we're like "we need a bigger cell phone" and... and then they went a little bit smaller or has it always been... Dave Ghidiu: Well so now we're in that flux of okay... of... of sizes and... and I think we'll... we'll get into that as far as devices like phones go because, um, obviously, um, we'll touch on this too, but the foldables and all of that stuff are on the way. But, um, it was interesting because as a developer and when you were creating content for... for broadcast, you had predefined screen sizes and format. Paul Engin: 4 to 3. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. So it was back in the day it was 4 to 3 and then it was 480. It was like a specific 480p. Uh, it... it was interlaced or it depend... it depended on if you were doing a... there were standards. There were broadcast standards. So depending on the broadcast standard... I don't want to get too technical... Paul Engin: The 480 is like tame by today's standards. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah that's 108... It's equivalent to what 1080 is standard now, right? So 480 was the standard there. Um, and Jeff I don't know if you remember the... I think it was 480 by... I don't know if I'm putting you on the spot. I'm checking. All right. My... my guess is 360... 360. If it's four to three it could be. It could be. Um... Paul Engin: Dad, if you're lifting my math degree I think it's paid off finally. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah but I haven't had to use that aspect ratio obviously since 640 by 480. Paul Engin: Oh, 640 by 480. Yeah. Okay. Dave Ghidiu: So, um, that used to be the standard resolution. And then, um, so when you were creating film you would always create to that. There was one defined... Paul Engin: Sure. Cuz everyone had a TV that was... that was the broadcast right that was the broadcast standard. Dave Ghidiu: Um, then HD came out, right? And now you're creating content for these other screen sizes, these other resolutions. So now we have multiple resolutions that you have to create for. And you know, we deal with that almost on a daily basis. We say should we... should we shoot this in 4K? And it's like well, what is it going to be displayed on? Are we just displaying it online? Displays that go into it... Do we have storage space? Do you have a system that can edit... yeah 4K? All of these things that play into it. And sometimes we revert back to 1080 is good enough and we're good with 1080 just, you know, even though we can support 4K or 8K we... we go back down to that, you know. Paul Engin: Yeah. And when you say start... when you were talking about developing it made me think... so the year I was born, 1978, movie of the year was Deer Hunter. Have you ever seen it? Dave Ghidiu: No, I have not. Paul Engin: I'm bad. So movies have always been 16 to 9 or is wide screen? Cuz I remember TVs growing up were like "this is the letter box edition" or whatever. So I had a... my 25-in TV in my college dorm room... 24 in and it was 4 to 3 and I... I enjoyed watching Deer Hunter and this last scene... it's this really beautiful and... and melancholy scene and I did not have the widescreen edition or the letter box version. But in that movie, because everything was... it was... it was a wide shot. It had like all the cast members in it. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. Paul Engin: So it... they did put the... the black bars in the top and the bottom to make it wider. So someone had to make that editing decision: A, for the rest of the movie what to chop off because things on the left and the right weren't there, and then someone had to say "but for this last scene there is no negotiation like it will be the letter box version." Dave Ghidiu: Yes. Right. So you have to keep that in mind when they were changing these. Paul Engin: Yeah. That's wild. That's like such an editorial thing. And I remember watching movies I think it's called like pan and scan where it was an unnatural camera angle because it would be... it was a square TV, squareish, and then it would scan like pan over. So you can see what had you been in theater you would have seen that all along. Dave Ghidiu: Right. Right. Or they would do the letter boxing. Right. Um, but for development as far as, um, web and app development it was a similar thing. So, um, we used to develop just for desktop computers, right? Which were 4 to 3 as well. Paul Engin: Those were some... Yeah back in the... what let's... let's be honest. Yes. They were all CRT monitors way back... back in the day, right? Dave Ghidiu: Um but then, um, what happened is... so it was always... it was always desktop first. Then in 2007 do you know what came out? A phone. Paul Engin: Yes. The iPhone. Dave Ghidiu: The iPhone. Exactly. So now there were mobile devices that had web browser capabilities. Paul Engin: Sure. Like Blackberry was out. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. But they were modified... this... the browsers were modified so they weren't a full true browser. So, um, so the iPhone was the first full browser. So now what developers had to do is they had to design for both phone and desktop but desktop was still priority. So if I was using say Safari, which I think is the Apple browser on my phone, the phone would say... the phone would know "hey you're on a mobile device" and the my desktop would say "oh you're on a desktop." So it would have to serve different information or treat it differently, right? And when it first came out people were just creating two versions and it would just switch between the two versions, um, of the site that you create or the app that you create whatever you're creating. Obviously there's been an evolution since then. And uh... but then it... it was crazy because then in 2010 do you know what else came out? The iPad. Paul Engin: Yeah. Dave Ghidiu: And so now all of a sudden you had another screen size. Paul Engin: Oh is that not 4 to 3 or 16 to 9? Dave Ghidiu: No and it was its own custom scale size and they had different sizes of it. And then all of a sudden we started getting ultra wide monitors releasing in around 2015. And so, you know, another piece of the puzzle: Apple did a great job of saying "our phone is this size, develop for this size," but Android did a great job of saying "make the screens whatever size you want," so developers for Apple had a little bit easier than developers for Android because it was kind of the wild west. Paul Engin: Out there still is. Dave Ghidiu: Absolutely. And obviously as a developer you had to accommodate now from what we used to have which was one size, Mhm, to all of these different sizes formats aspect ratios. So, um, obviously programmatically they came up with things like it's called the fluid grid where everything is set on percentages and things shift and there's a lot of other things that you can do so you have one content base and everything else kind of shifts around based on... it's like fly by wire you design it once but the device kind of handles it. Paul Engin: Exactly. And based on your code you can hide things, display things, shift things to... to make it fit. So, um, we're seeing this evolution of all of these different screen sizes. And so it's interesting to me because for... for a developer a lot of times you know size does matter because we used to go from desktop first and now the mentality is you should always develop for mobile first and then they might look at it on a desktop. I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Dave Ghidiu: I... I always say design mobile first both from web design and even course design like it... that is the gold standard because if you can design for that particular format then it translates very easily to... to other formats. Paul Engin: So I think that to me as far as development goes it does matter. You do need to know what your end goal is, what your end user is going to use it. Dave Ghidiu: That's so frustrating because that could change tomorrow too. Paul Engin: Absolutely right. Like so I know Apple has a folding screen coming out. Dave Ghidiu: Yes. Paul Engin: And Samsung and Google both have them right now but Samsung just announced the trifold screen. Dave Ghidiu: Oh did they really? Paul Engin: Yeah. It's bonkers if you look at it. It unfolds like a really thin and really big tablet. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. So... Paul Engin: So now developers like you have to think of all these things and... and for the trifold cuz I have the biffold Samsung that we've been playing with and it has to accommodate when I fold it. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. Paul Engin: It has to accommodate the really... and it's very thin. Have you seen... I should bring it in but it's very thin. It's even thinner than like a normal phone but then you open it up and now you got twice as wide. Dave Ghidiu: Oh my gosh. Paul Engin: And so it's interesting cuz even for some of these app developments you... you have to keep all of these factors in mind right? Cuz if you're going to cater toward a tablet then it should be designed for that. If you're catering toward just your a phone then that's what should be the focus. And then the secondary things are... are other things you could support. But beyond that now think about this. We have our watch screens and Meta just came out with the new, um, Oculus the glasses where it has a little... Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. It has a little projection for AR. So it's another thing that you have to think about designing for for screen... and a lot of that would be transparent right? Paul Engin: Yes for the... for the Meta glasses. Yeah because it could show you... it would project arrows if you're walking through a city. Dave Ghidiu: Yes. And it doesn't come the whole screen. It's just subtle arrows. Paul Engin: Yeah. I think in just one eye. I haven't had a chance to see it yet or play with it. But, um, we are planning on getting one. So we'll... we'll let you know how that is. Um, so let me ask you something though as far as these screens. You know when we're developing for a screen what do you like... how do you like to work? Do you like to work on a small screen, two screens, three screens, five screens? Dave Ghidiu: I've had three screens before. That's the most I've had. Plus like my... my iPad or whatever next to it but now I have... and that was too much. So now I have an ultra wide. It's one monitor. It's... It's wide enough. It's wide where it's about two monitors width but only one monitor height. Paul Engin: Is it curved? Dave Ghidiu: Oh yeah. Paul Engin: So do you swear by the ultra curve? Yeah. 49? Dave Ghidiu: Uh, no I wish... it's 36 in. 36. Paul Engin: Okay that might be a good because right you... otherwise you're tilting your head if it's too far. Dave Ghidiu: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. And... and so that... that's my... I have one monitor and I can see everything but I still use the... the virtual desktop so I can like scroll everything over to the side. But that's a conversation for another day. Paul Engin: A virtual desktop. What... What do you mean oh... Dave Ghidiu: Oh so you have a... Yeah. Like your Mac does it where you can like... Paul Engin: Yep. keep sliding different layouts for the... Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. Are you ultra wide? Are you one monitor? Um cuz those Apple monitors, I know you're an Apple guy... those Apple monitors are gorgeous. Paul Engin: Yeah. So we... So I don't have one of those Apple monitors for... for color. Dave Ghidiu: Um, you just have a black and white one. Paul Engin: I just have a black and white monitor. No. Um, so I... I normally I have to function with two monitors. Um, but let me... I... I want to come back to what I'm doing lately. But I want to ask Jeff because Jeff, um, does a lot of video editing and a lot of production work. What... What's your kind of monitor setup what do you like? Jeff Kidd: If I'm editing video I like to have two. One big one in the middle and maybe a smaller one off to the side. The one on the side would be like what it's going to look like like when we're watching it. So that's usually full screen and it's nothing in the way, right? The if I'm editing in Premiere I don't see the interface. Paul Engin: Y... and I it's... so I have a... a production monitor that's off to the one side. So that's when I'm playing it it's like a full screen program. So you can watch the whole thing without any of the UI. Jeff Kidd: That's right. Paul Engin: That's cool. And then... and do you like that setup for... for just about everything or just for when you're doing editing? Jeff Kidd: Uh, I like it when I'm just using my computer because then I can have two like you know... you know like in WebEx or whatever I can have WebEx open and then if we're talking about the document that's in the other, uh, monitor so I can kind of like look back and forth without anything overlapping or anything getting in the way. Paul Engin: Right. Right. Okay. That's cool because it's interesting because I think most developers and I think a lot of people like the dual monitor setup. I know I used to be... I used to have two 24s that were buted up next to each other. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. But you get the line down the middle. Paul Engin: You get the line in the middle and I always... I... I'm thinking about the ultra wide but we recently got a Vision Pro here. That's the Apple VR AR unit. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. and and the Quest does this too but um... Paul Engin: The... the thing that I love about it is that I can now use my laptop anywhere. So on a plane, and I know it looks geeky on a plane, but um I have an ultrawide while you guys are just sitting there on your, uh, little, uh, phone. Dave Ghidiu: Okay, so don't... don't tease me if you see me on a plane with a Vision Pro. I... Well I also bring a portable monitor when I'm traveling. Paul Engin: Oh you do? yeah. Dave Ghidiu: And... and a lot... interesting lot... a lot of software engineers will actually take a monitor and rotate it 90 degrees so it's... it's portrait not landscape because when you have code you want to see all the code that goes up and down. It doesn't matter how far left and right because you should only go like 84 characters across. Paul Engin: Gotcha. Right. Right. I have... I have a followup. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. Yeah. Paul Engin: What's so your... your ideal monitor size... okay. So the cool thing about the Vision Pro is you have an option for an ultra wide. So almost I think it was 52 curved. Dave Ghidiu: Oh my gosh. Paul Engin: So I could wrap it all the way around me pretty much. And so I worked on that for about an hour and a half and you know what I realized? Dave Ghidiu: You're lift... looking left and right too much. Paul Engin: Yes. Yeah. Yes. So I... I was thinking and it's weird because I'm so glad I did this cuz in my head I was like "I'm going to save up I'm going to get..." cuz they're expensive. The 50-inch ones are over $1,000 or even the 49 in the you know. And so I was like that's what I wanted to get. But in doing that I did this a lot and I was like... Dave Ghidiu: You did like left and right? Paul Engin: Oh yeah I'm sorry. Yeah. You... for those in the podcast world I was turning my head left and right. And, um, so I started getting like neck... neck fatigue. And this is just a virtual monitor in front of me. But, um, so then what I realized is that I think your size of 39 curved... I wish it was just a little bit bigger so I could do two 16 by 9. Dave Ghidiu: I wish it was 32 to 9. 32. Okay. Because mine when I have it side by side it's not quite 16 to 9 on either one. Paul Engin: Uhhuh. So I... I... I do wish that I could... I had done that. But the... So okay so this is the power of the Vision Pro. And again you can do this with the Quest. The Quest has a... which is the Meta, um, VR headset and you can, uh, link up to computers and do something similar. But, um, with the Vision Pro it allows me to be flexible. That's why Jeff I asked you how you like to work if it's the same when you're doing editing you know what I mean versus the regular production stuff. Um, I like it because I can put when I'm doing editing the longer monitor, the more ultra wide monitor, and then when I'm doing standard production stuff I can do it so it is smaller and it's higher. So I can... I can bring it in front of me and just do this. But when I have a timeline, similar to code, you want it like you said you know you want it vertical or portrait when I'm doing a timeline or editing... wide as possible so I can scrub the whole thing I can see the whole timeline. Um, so I like the ability and the flexibility to switch it. Now the caveat with the Vision Pro is you have this bulky thing that gets hot. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. It's not insignificantly uncomfortable. Paul Engin: Right. Right. So... so, um, it's... it... it's interesting to me because you know it's something small that you know screen size and whatnot but, um, I've also heard that like gamers don't like the ultra wide that they prefer like a 24 in for optimal performance and vision. I wonder about that. Back... back in the 1900s when I was in college one of my buddies we did have a projector and he's like "I can't play video games on projectors because if you're on a 10-ft screen it's just so much longer to... to you know drag you know the... the... the character you're controlling all the way up or looking." I was like "Oh yeah." Dave Ghidiu: And I think it's also because it's peripheral so when it's right in front of you you can see everything versus having to have to physically turn your head. Um, so I think it's really interesting that you know something we don't necessarily think about is size and, um, how we develop, how we consume and I don't know what do you consume most of your video on now? Are on your phone, on your computer, or a TV? Paul Engin: So I... I do want to just acknowledge that no one ever complains about screen sizes anymore which means that the designers are doing a fantastic job predicting how things will be used and putting them in the proper form factor like you were saying which is cool. So if you're a designer out there, congratulations. The... I... I mostly watch on a... a screen such as my laptop or a TV. If I'm on the treadmill or you know I'll have the... the TV going. I'll watch it on my phone occasionally. Dave Ghidiu: Mhm. Paul Engin: But... but I do have some studies to share with you. Dave Ghidiu: Oh yeah, go for it. Paul Engin: So there's been quite a few studies on screen sizes. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. Paul Engin: Uh, one of them does not come as a surprise. The smaller screen size, the more eye fatigue you have, which is not... should... shouldn't be a surprise for anyone. But what I thought was fascinating, there... there was two kind of cognitive byproducts to watching things on small screens. One is the smaller the... the... the display size of a screen it causes distortions in perceptual estimates of size. So if you were watching the same video on a mobile phone and it was a video of me you'd be like "Oh that guy's like 6 feet 5 in." Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Paul Engin: But if you were watching me on a regular screen you'd be like "That guy's like 5'10"." Like you... you are keyed in way more, you're more attuned to... to size discrepancies. Uh, but... but the most wild thing... Dave Ghidiu: Oh hold on I'm gonna you know that happened. So... so back in COVID... Paul Engin: Sure. Dave Ghidiu: Right we had... we had... we saw all our students on... on screens. Paul Engin: Oh yeah. Right. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. And, uh, I'm... I had a big monitor at home and so I see these and I would think that for some reason my perception of them like you said was that... Paul Engin: Yeah. You have no idea. No basic comparison. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. And then they actually came into the building and one person was like six feet. Paul Engin: You thought they were all the same height? Dave Ghidiu: Yeah they were all the same height but it was just interesting. But go ahead I'm sorry. Paul Engin: No that's... that's fine. Uh, so there's a study in 2019 that's been repeated a few different times that basically says that when you watch, for instance, a news program on a computer monitor and they had different news stories... that heart rate and skin conductance was measured during viewing on 13-in or wider, uh, screens and then also 5 in or smaller and participants had reduced reactions in attentiveness to smaller screens which is interesting. But the... the... the what I thought was really fascinating is there was a study in 2024 called "Are Smaller Screens Making Us More Self-Absorbed?" And because small screens, because we're... they are increasingly relied upon for access to news—in fact I think last year was the first year news consumption was higher on mobile than it was in any other media... Dave Ghidiu: Right. Right. Paul Engin: So content on small screens elicits less attention and lower levels of emotional engagement which were probably attenuated to that because of scrolling and doom scrolling. Dave Ghidiu: Right. Right. Paul Engin: So that's a... you're that's like two strikes against you already. And the... the swiping and scrolling on small screens contribute to greater psychological distancing and self-absorption. And they think it's because... and... and by the way we all know that... we know that this causes emotional disengagement which contributes to loneliness and... and sadness and depression. But the quote that I thought was very fascinating is: "The sheer volume of information now available may make us feel fully informed but often we may be actually getting disjointed pieces of reality without an overall portrait of how the pieces fit together." And the reason I think that's interesting and... and basically what that means is when you watch things that are disperate and disjointed you... there's no context for them. So I just happened to finish reading "Amusing Ourselves to Death" by Neil Postman which was written in the 1984/85, so well before the internet, and he has a whole chapter called "And Now This" and it's about how the news media... they would shift from story to story to story and say "and now this" and they'd talk about whatever. And so he identified back, you know, 40 years ago that we were starting to decontextualize and become desensitized to information because of the way it was portrayed. But now we're seeing that not only in, you know, the... the flash media we have with like constant swiping, but also when you... it's not as immersive. When it's on a... when you're on a big screen It's immersive and you... you can make more sense of it. When it's on a small screen your eyes aren't going all over the place because you can take it all at once and so it's less immersive so you are less emotionally attached to it. Dave Ghidiu: That's interesting. Do you think that there's also credibility to that? When we see it on our phone maybe there's less credibility to like the... the... other the news is on the TV and there's more value to... Paul Engin: Oh because that's an established... Yeah an est... you know like I wonder if there's a we're so used to consuming social media which is not produced necessarily by, uh, you know a group of people that it's just people just spewing whatever their thoughts are versus... Yeah I don't know. And almost we're so divorced from ideas and truth and reality right now it... it almost doesn't matter. But I did see a study that said if you have a microphone you are considered more of an authority. Dave Ghidiu: So... So that's why you see some people on... Paul Engin: Well I mean obviously we have microphones. We have two microphones. There's a third one over here too. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. But it's not on camera so they'll never know. Paul Engin: But... but you'll see influencers that either have microphones or they will pick up something like a banana and use it as a microphone because in that thumbnail they are conveying that they are more of an authority figure. Dave Ghidiu: They're like I don't know what to make sure there. Nothing makes sense to me anymore on... in online. That's... that's great. Um, so I think just real quick I think we should, uh, just talk about a little bit, um, when we're talking about all these screen sizes one of the things that you know we're talking about is these smaller screen sizes. And I don't know if you're aware but Google, um, a long time ago when they started developing Android they realized that we're no longer a desktop company. Paul Engin: Yeah. Dave Ghidiu: And so they changed their logo. So they got rid of the serifs, the decorative... Paul Engin: Yeah I remember the serifs. Yeah they're these little decorative elements that are on the font. Dave Ghidiu: They got rid of it and they made them all sans serifs because sans serif fonts are easier to read on smaller, um, uh, screens. Paul Engin: Yeah. Oh yeah. And so... Oh that's why they did that. Dave Ghidiu: Yeah. So think... so this is something to think about, right? If you're designing mobile first: how big should the text be? Should you be using sans serif fonts? How do you optimize your... your interaction for touch versus a mouse, right? Because on a... you can have hover states and... Paul Engin: Oh yeah. There's tool tips and everything. But you don't have that on a digital device where it's just like touch right or right click even. Dave Ghidiu: Exactly. So those are things that you should keep in mind when you're designing content for mobile. Um, also you know how small is the object in the video? If you're doing a media production you know how small are the UI elements for touch on your screen? I see that in apps sometimes where the text is so small and I can't resize. I'm like "oh this is... this is awful," right? Paul Engin: Awful design. Yeah. Dave Ghidiu: So usability wise, the ability to scale the text to accommodate, um, that... that smaller screen. Uh, so I think that... is there anything else you can think of that you know people should think about if they're designing for a smaller screen or...? Paul Engin: Well I would say when you were talking about fonts and that made me think of two different fonts. One is Lexend which is in Google fonts and you can use it in Google Docs. It's designed specifically for dyslexia and it's a sans serif font. So it's... it's universal design. It's great for everyone. Uh, but the other font that I thought was fascinating is Sans Forgetica. It's f-o-r-g-e-t... t-i-c-a... Forget the gut... It was developed by a university in Melbourne, Australia. And if you look at it, it... it looks like three-fourths of the letter of each letter is there. Dave Ghidiu: Mhm. Paul Engin: And it's meant to help you remember because you have to really engage when you read it because you have to fill in the blanks of each letter. Dave Ghidiu: Yes. So that... that... that does not reside I don't think in Google Docs or... or Microsoft Word but it's a font that you can install on your computer. Paul Engin: Oh that's really cool. Actually that's a great design technique because psychologically our minds tend to close objects and shapes. So if, um, you know you cut off half of a... a letter form depending if it's the bottom or the top it's a clearer... like if you cut off the top it's tougher to understand really the... the letter form. I feel like you could do a whole podcast on design. But, um, yeah so there's a lot of things around that. Um, I'm hoping that this helped a lot of people as far as, uh, the different screen types. I know it's a pretty light topic but I think it's, uh, really interesting to see how things have evolved as far as screens for developers, for media, for how we consume, um, in general. Um, I think that, uh, it's really, uh, something that will keep changing as we get, uh, devices on our heads like glasses and all of that stuff. Dave Ghidiu: And if you ever meet a designer, thank them for all the... the... the invisible labor. You know if... if people aren't complaining about the screen size or the design that means someone did a really good job. Paul Engin: That's true. That's true. Well that's all the time we have for today. My name is Paul Engin. Dave Ghidiu: I'm Dave Ghidiu. If you enjoyed today's conversation be sure to smash that subscribe and like button so you never miss an episode and share it with your friends and colleagues. Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and thanks for looking through the immersive lens with us. Let's be careful out there. Paul Engin: This episode was engineered by Jeff Kidd. Recorded at Finger Lakes Community College podcast studios located in beautiful Canandaigua, New York in the heart of the Finger Lakes region. Offering more than 55 degrees, certificates, micro credentials, and workforce training programs. Thank you to public relations and communications, marketing, and FLX AI hub. Eager to delve into passion, discover exciting and immersive opportunities at www.flcc.edu. As part of our mission at FLCC we are committed to making education accessible, innovative, and aligned with the needs of both students and employers. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official position of Finger Lakes Community College. Music by Den from Pixabay. This is the Immersive Lens. Dave Ghidiu: Was that an explosion? Is he okay? Oh my god... Jeff Kidd: May I lift it off my seat a little bit and that's a wrap. Dave Ghidiu: All right. Well done.
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