The Immersive Lens Podcast

Paul Engin | Dave Ghidiu | Jeff Kidd

Episode 8: Cameras

Cover art for the Episode of The Immersive Lens

 

In this episode of The Immersive Lens, hosts Paul Engin and Dave Ghidiu welcome their first on-air guest, Jeff Kidd, who typically manages the show's control room, to discuss the technology and history behind cameras. Before diving into the main topic, the group covers recent tech news, including a Carnegie Mellon study indicating that mobile phone users are less likely to click on malware links than PC users due to differing attention contexts. They also discuss Disney's recent $1 billion investment in OpenAI and the Merriam-Webster word of the year, "slop," which refers to the flood of low-quality AI-generated content on the internet.

The core discussion tracks the evolution of video production, sparked by the podcast's upgrade from a single GoPro to a multi-camera setup using Sony mirrorless devices. The trio reflects on the shift from analog to digital, sharing experiences that range from Paul's work with 35mm film to Jeff's time in news broadcasting using expensive, low-capacity P2 cards that required "pre-roll" to capture action without wasting storage. They analyze how the transition from formats like VHS and Betamax to modern, high-capacity digital storage has made editing easier but perhaps less disciplined, ultimately advising listeners to choose equipment - such as smartphones or gimbals like the DJI Osmo - based specifically on their creative goals.




Key Topics

The Evolution of Professional Video Workflow and Storage. Jeff Kidd recalls the challenges of broadcast news in 2007, where expensive 4-gigabyte P2 cards limited recording time to just 16 minutes, necessitating the use of "pre-roll" to capture action retroactively. The group contrasts this with today's inexpensive, massive storage options, observing that the ease of modern digital recording has perhaps made creators less disciplined in their shooting and editing habits.

The Transition from Analog Film to Digital Formats. Paul Engin traces the history of media formats, noting how film sizes like 8mm and 35mm distinguished consumer users from professionals before the shift to videotape wars between VHS and Betamax. He draws a parallel between Kodak and Xerox, arguing that both companies lost their dominance by failing to pivot from their traditional physical products to the emerging digital technologies they helped pioneer.

Selecting the Right Equipment for Creative Goals. When discussing gear, the hosts emphasize that users should select equipment based on their specific project goals rather than technical specifications alone. They illustrate this with a student who needed to film themselves riding a horse, utilizing a DJI Osmo gimbal to automatically track the action without the need for a camera operator.

Current Tech News: Malware Behaviors and AI "Slop." Dave Ghidiu shares a study indicating that mobile phone users are less likely to click on malware links because they operate in "low attention contexts" where they ignore most interruptions. The group also notes Disney's significant investment in OpenAI and discusses "slop," Merriam-Webster’s word of the year for the flood of low-quality AI content.





Transcript

Click here to view transcript
Here is the transcript for the episode. Based on the introductions in the audio, I have identified the speakers for you to save you the find-and-replace step:

Paul: Paul Engin (Host)

Dave: Dave Ghidiu (Host)

Jeff: Jeff Kidd (Guest)

(Note: There is a brief appearance by the engineer, Hugh, during the cold open).



[00:00] Hugh (Engineer): Rolling.

[00:01] Paul: All right, and it's Hugh Laird, right?

[00:03] Hugh: Yep.

[00:04] Paul: All right. Are we ready? [Laughter] You know... [Fade out/Banter]

[00:16] Intro Voiceover: Welcome to The Immersive Lens, the podcast exploring the technologies reshaping how we live, work, and learn. From AI and virtual reality to creative media and design, we’re diving into the tools and ideas shaping our connected world.

[00:33] Paul: My name is Paul Engin. Join us as we uncover the people and ideas driving the next wave of interactive experience.

[00:40] Dave: And I'm Dave Ghidiu. This is The Immersive Lens.

[00:44] Paul: Hey Dave, uh, I think we should address the elephant in the room. What do you think?

[00:48] Dave: Yeah, what's going on? Something's different.

[00:50] Paul: I don't know what it is. Uh, hey, uh, today we have a special guest. We're going to be talking about cameras. And so our guest is Jeff Kidd. He's our first guest of the show. Welcome, Jeff.

[01:03] Jeff: Happy to be here.

[01:04] Paul: Um, he's usually in the control room. You've seen him in, uh, other episodes if you've been watching on, uh, the different platforms. And we have a new engineer today, Hugh Laird. Uh, thank you very much, Hugh, for stepping in to that role for today.

[01:19] Hugh: Yeah, thank you. Thanks, Hugh.

[01:21] Paul: Um, so, uh, Jeff, welcome to, uh, the podcast.

[01:27] Jeff: This side of the podcast.

[01:28] Paul: This side of the podcast, yes.

[01:30] Jeff: It's weird to be on that side, to see the cameras and... it's... it's an unusual feeling, but I'm... I'm excited.

[01:36] Dave: Just for our listeners, not our viewers, how many devices and cameras do you see in the room right now?

[01:42] Jeff: We normally have one GoPro.

[01:44] Dave: Yep.

[01:45] Jeff: And a little monitor for you guys. There's more than that today.

[01:49] Dave: We'll get into that later. You can kind of give us the breakdown of what we're doing here. Um, so, uh, Dave, anything interesting happening with you in, uh, hot takes today?

[02:00] Dave: Yeah, so this is just a follow up when we had talked about screen sizes and maybe how that modifies behavior. Carnegie Mellon just published a study and it was about, believe it or not, uh, malware. So the question is: do you think mobile phone users are more likely to contract malware, or less likely than PC users?

[02:22] Paul: What is... what is malw— I guess I'm...

[02:24] Dave: That would be like when you click on like a phishing link.

[02:26] Paul: Oh, and then it does something to your computer or puts something on your computer.

[02:29] Dave: Yeah.

[02:29] Paul: Okay. So say that... what's the question again?

[02:31] Dave: So, do you think mobile phone users are more at risk or PC users, like desktop users?

[02:37] Paul: I'm gonna go... What do you think? I'm gonna say PC as well.

[02:40] Dave: Yeah. And it's not even close. It's 80%.

[02:43] Paul: Wait, now when you say PC...

[02:45] Dave: Is it Mac or is it Windows?

[02:46] Paul: It's any desktop computer.

[02:47] Dave: Any desktop? All right.

[02:48] Paul: I didn't know if the operating system was uh...

[02:50] Dave: No. So this actually... uh, Chromebooks actually can't get uh, malware.

[02:54] Paul: Ah.

[02:55] Dave: There's never been a p— a piece of malware. It... it's a real nerdy thing. It has to deal with the way that the operating system can... is immutable. Like you can't alter registry keys, like you can on PC or Mac. So, but anyway, this is fascinating because it's a behavioral issue. And they've done this study, it had like 5,000 links and about 2.4% of them were... were malicious links. And they found that in the wild, so this is true da— actual data, mobile phone users hardly ever clicked on them whereas computer users did. And then they did a lab study and it was... there was still a disparity. It was like 64% of mobile phone users avoided it and 36% of uh, desktop users. But the... the reason is because, at least this is the current thinking, because the mobile phone users are usually using phones in low attention contexts, like lying in bed. And so they're less focused on these situations and they're just more inclined to avoid engaging in any risky behavior, like clicking on links. So it's not necessarily that they're cybersecurity minded, it's that they're less attentive. And less likely to be like, "suss out oh my gosh, is this a bad link or not? I'm just gonna ignore it."

[04:02] Paul: Well, you know what's interesting about that? All right, so I'm getting an email and it's like, it says it's from HR.

[04:09] Dave: Sure.

[04:10] Paul: And it says, you know, click and pick your holiday gift.

[04:14] Dave: Yes.

[04:15] Paul: So it's... I haven't clicked on it yet. Do you know why?

[04:18] Dave: Because it...

[04:19] Paul: I'm worried! It's a phishing... and I don't know if it's true or not. And when I'm on my mobile phone, there's no hover state.

[04:26] Dave: That's part of it.

[04:26] Paul: So I can't... so I'm like, I'm not gonna do it.

[04:28] Dave: And when you say hover state, like if... if you were on your PC or your Mac, you could put your cursor over and you could look at the link that is going to send you to. And it would be like 'badsite.com/fishing'.

[04:38] Paul: Right.

[04:38] Dave: But this one might... but you can't tell on a mobile phone. So, yeah, behavior... so the screen sizes do matter. You were right. All right. So you tell me something cool now.

[04:47] Paul: Uh, well, so I don't know if you're aware, uh, but uh, Disney just recently... by... during the taping of this, which is the 16th of December... um, Disney just invested one billion into OpenAI.

[05:01] Dave: One bil?

[05:02] Paul: Yeah. So, uh, they want to try to jump into... like start getting involved in this rather than being reactive to it. And they feel like uh...

[05:10] Dave: To... to like AI using their characters and whatnot?

[05:13] Paul: Um, so I guess they're going to give a subset of their characters, I think it's the older characters. Um, they're going to give some rights to, and I th— I think they're going to monetize based on the use of the... I don't know all the nitty gritty of the details, but the flip side of this is, you know what they just did today?

[05:32] Dave: Sued Google?

[05:33] Paul: Yeah.

[05:34] Dave: For... and made Google take down all the Disney properties.

[05:36] Paul: Yeah. So...

[05:37] Dave: Yeah, so that's interesting. Are th— do you have any intel? Is it going to be... AI will be producing short films, like 60-second films with old Disney characters? Or is it something more like Critters like you were talking about before?

[05:49] Paul: So I think it's just for general public playing, but I think what it is is they're... you know... we recently just got into a production with... with using AI. And I think they need to explore the technical aspects of how they could use AI.

[06:06] Dave: Oh, what a clever way to do that.

[06:07] Paul: Yeah, because they don't have the infrastructure to build out a LLM or a large...

[06:11] Dave: Disney doesn't?

[06:12] Paul: No, they don't have the servers and the... I mean they could... they could pay for it and build one out, but um, I think they're... you know, you're so far behind right now that you have to leverage the...

[06:23] Dave: The big boys.

[06:23] Paul: The big boys.

[06:24] Dave: That makes sense.

[06:25] Paul: So I think that they're going to use it for two things: to see how it can be used, and then, um, also to see how they could use it, is my... is my guess. But I'm not... again I'm not... this just happened so...

[06:37] Dave: That's cool.

[06:38] Paul: Um, I'm not sure. Uh, how about you Jeff? Do you have any... anything that's happening that's...

[06:44] Jeff: Tell us something cool.

[06:45] Paul: ...you know, you know what happens at this juncture.

[06:47] Jeff: I have, uh, Merriam-Webster Dictionary's Word of the Year.

[06:52] Dave: Wh— oh. What's that? What's a... dictionary? [Laughter]

[06:58] Jeff: Yeah, we work here. Um... Slop.

[07:01] Dave: Is it slop?

[07:02] Jeff: Mm-hmm.

[07:03] Dave: Oh my. That... I thought that was your word.

[07:05] Jeff: I didn't... yeah. They stole it.

[07:07] Dave: AI slop.

[07:07] Jeff: AI slop.

[07:08] Paul: Oh wait, is it AI slop or is it just...

[07:10] Jeff: No, specifically AI slop, but just "slop".

[07:12] Paul: Slop. Is there a definition?

[07:14] Jeff: Uh, referring to low quality AI content.

[07:18] Paul: Oh.

[07:19] Dave: Oh so we're just calling it slop now?

[07:20] Jeff: Well AI... yeah. Merriam is choosing "slop" referring to a low quality AI content.

[07:26] Paul: So it's specific to AI... Oh look at that. So you don't have to say AI before slop now?

[07:31] Dave: Yeah, I'm just gonna say slop, people will know what we're talking about. Now it's codified.

[07:34] Jeff: Technically this is what it says: "Digital content of low quality, often AI generated, flooding the internet."

[07:40] Paul: Oh okay, so it's digit— okay.

[07:41] Dave: This is just like a PSA in case you didn't catch one of our earlier episodes, but there's been a study that shows if you pass off AI slop in the workplace... so, you know, you punch something into AI and just hand it off... uh, if you get busted, if people can tell—and it's much easier to tell now because of the em dashes, emojis and uh, all sorts of other telltales—but you are looked upon, and the research backs this up, as less intelligent, less capable, and less trustworthy.

[08:08] Paul: Yeah. You gotta look over your stuff, right?

[08:10] Dave: So no slop.

[08:11] Paul: No slop.

[08:12] Dave: 2026. Avoid the slop.

[08:14] Paul: So why don't we get going into our main topic of focus today, which is going to be cameras. Um, and Jeff, I thought that maybe you could kick us off by... I want to talk a little bit about a history, but, you know, you're here... we can talk about how you set up this... th— what is this sh— this setup? And why we did it?

[08:34] Jeff: What do we have? Yeah. So typically when we've done the podcast so far, it's been a single GoPro sitting on the desk. And for those who don't know what a GoPro is, it's basically uh, the most popular action camera. But uh, we... you can use it like in video production. People do use it all the time in like reality TV, and like vehicles and stuff like that because it's so small it can fit in small places and you can get a lot of coverage. Like for example, in reality TV, you see it a lot when they're going to and from some place. You see... sometimes you can actually see them in the vehicle. Like we actually did a shoot with them for uh, an editing class. And I put four of them in the car. One wide shot, two shot of us, one for me, one for you, and one facing out. And we used that just because of the small space that we're in.

[09:20] Dave: These are the cameras that I see skiers, like they're like glued to their helmet, or motorcyclists.

[09:24] Jeff: Yes. But also...

[09:25] Dave: Like, are there like selfie sticks and you put the GoPro on it so you can see like yourself as you like going down the mountain or whatever?

[09:30] Jeff: That's right. Exactly. Helmet... you know, helmet mo— we have all kinds of those mounts that students can use. Chest mounts... selfie sticks, clamps... all that good stuff. And that's what we used for... for the podcast. And the topic came up: not me as the guest, but a guest. How do we do that? Like, what are we going to do? And for Paul, it's... it's very technical, but it records separate files. So once you get to a certain size—which we'll talk about size and storage and all that in a little bit—it makes a new file. So it's a lot easier if we just have one... you know we record on the camera and it's just one long file. So to do that with three cameras... 'cause typically when you have multiple people, you have a closeup for each person uh, and a wide shot or a two shot or something like that.

[10:17] Jeff: So the typical shot is actually that camera right there. It's usually just you two.

[10:21] Paul: So that's just Paul and I.

[10:22] Jeff: It's just Dave and Paul.

[10:23] Paul: Right there. We're pointing at you.

[10:24] Jeff: We're pointing at that camera, yep. And you have a guest, which in this case is me, I should have a camera. And that's my camera.

[10:30] Paul: Oh so there's a camera just on you?

[10:31] Jeff: So there's a camera right there for me.

[10:32] Paul: So there... there's one camera for Paul and I, one camera that's just you...

[10:35] Jeff: Can you use that real quick and give me a video of this?

[10:38] Dave: Yeah.

[10:39] Paul: So go ahead.

[10:39] Jeff: A little bit behind the scenes I guess. And then you have a wide shot that has all three of us. So if we really had enough space and more cameras, we would... there'd be even more cameras in here, but we don't have enough space for that. So uh, in this case we've got a couple of our Sony mirrorless cameras uh, to get enough coverage.

[10:56] Dave: Why... why does it matter if it's mirrorless? What does that even mean?

[10:59] Jeff: So mirrorless basically means there's no mirror inside it. So the previous standard for vi— uh, video but more so photography was the DSLR, which had a mirror in it. And if we really want to get technical, when you take the picture, the shutter opens and the mirror is kind of like flips in a way...

[11:16] Dave: Opens up, yeah.

[11:17] Jeff: Opens up and there's a... now mirrorless is... no mirror. It's basically like a computer now.

[11:21] Dave: So the mirror had nothing to do with development? It was just so you could see through the lens before you took the picture?

[11:25] Jeff: Exactly.

[11:25] Dave: Instead of a viewfinder on like the cheesy little...

[11:27] Jeff: It's still... technically a viewfinder. You wanna go into that?

[11:30] Paul: Yeah, we'll... we'll get into the history and we'll kind of talk about that...

[11:32] Dave: And satiate my appetite about the mirrors.

[11:34] Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So bring that up when we're... when we're there.

[11:36] Jeff: No problem. So uh, my history... my beginnings though... was... were my home movie camera that my dad got when I was a kid. And when I turned nine, it became me doing our home movies and not my father 'cause I picked it up. So that was my first ever camera ever.

[11:53] Dave: You've been producing since nine?

[11:55] Jeff: Pretty much. I didn't know how to edit, there was no editing. It was just whatever.

[11:58] Dave: Is this like... did it have a VCR tape? Did it have like a reel to reel?

[12:01] Jeff: It was a VCR... a VHS tape.

[12:03] Dave: Did it have like two different components? Like you had to carry the VCR kind of in your backpack?

[12:07] Jeff: No.

[12:07] Dave: Okay. So you looked like a news person from like the 90s with a big huge camera.

[12:11] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then uh, when I was in middle school, I was like "I think I want to learn how to do this" and my dad quietly did a backflip. He was so excited for me. Uh, I couldn't tell you the model number but it was a Sony Hi8 camera. I don't know if you ever heard of that Paul, but...

[12:26] Dave: Was that a smaller tape?

[12:27] Jeff: It's... yes. Much smaller tape but it was uh, digital technically. It was technically a digital camera because it had FireWire out. So you would go... you would record on your tape...

[12:38] Dave: Yeah.

[12:38] Jeff: And then connect the camera to your computer... which was a G4 Mac. Mac tower.

[12:43] Dave: Oh the Mac G4.

[12:44] Jeff: Green. It was green. And my dad spent an insane amount of money on an additional 50 gigs of storage just for me to put footage...

[12:53] Dave: 50 gigs. Back storage. In what year was it?

[12:55] Jeff: Uh... middle school. How old was I? Maybe 2000... maybe 98 or 99.

[13:00] Dave: 50 gigs back then must have been super expensive.

[13:03] Jeff: Yeah. Holy smokes.

[13:04] Jeff: Yeah. I don't know. I could tell you what it was. Uh, and then when I got to here at FLCC, it was MiniDV. So we had camcorders that had MiniDV tapes. And it was the same process. So we had decks here. So instead of connecting the camera to the computer, you connected... you took the tape out and then used a deck to communicate to the computer and that you would capture your footage.

[13:25] Dave: Wow. It seems so cumbersome by today's standards.

[13:28] Paul: Oh. It's gotten better. It's gotten better.

[13:31] Jeff: The... the process of ingesting, or capturing your footage, was basically the majority of your project. Like if you count the whole... the whole production or editing process, at least half of it was just getting it into the computer in those days.

[13:45] Dave: Oh my gosh.

[13:45] Paul: And then the... yeah. And we can get into that in a minute. But um, since we're based out in Rochester, um, I thought that we could kind of talk about uh, where it started. And uh, for digital... uh, or for static cameras, it was film. And Kodak was obviously a big...

[14:05] Jeff: So for me, I... my first was VHS and the Hi8. So if you want to talk about that's... that's you guys.

[14:11] Dave: Okay. Because I don't have it... I... I did work with film a little bit when I worked at News 8, but not... I never edited it really.

[14:18] Paul: So um, in my undergraduate it was uh, film. Um, and we were shooting with uh, obviously 35 millimeter still cameras and we were shooting with 16 millimeter film cameras.

[14:29] Jeff: Now if I remember correctly about... about film cameras, there was no audio. Right? You had to shoot your... you had to shoot audio separate from your video basically. Yeah.

[14:38] Dave: Oh my gosh. What a nightmare.

[14:40] Paul: So most of the stuff I was filming at the time were... was animation. It was stop motion. And—and we can get into it in a minute—but the film is uh, basically when we talk about these millimeters, it's just the film size itself. So um...

[14:54] Jeff: The width of the film itself. Right. Yeah.

[14:55] Paul: So, 8 millimeter was consumer. 16 millimeter was prosumer. I'll call it prosumer. And then 35 millimeter was obviously production...

[15:05] Dave: That's what went... when I went to movies in the 80s and 90s...

[15:07] Paul: That was 35 millimeter.

[15:08] Dave: Okay.

[15:09] Paul: And then um, from there uh, it evolved as far as film cameras obviously or static cameras, it started moving toward the digital cameras. For video um, for motion cameras, it was starting to get into uh, video. And so we started moving away from film into video. And the two dominant um, types when they first came out was Betamax and VHS.

[15:35] Dave: Oh my gosh. Do you remember... I remember those wars.

[15:38] Paul: Yeah.

[15:39] Jeff: I was... uh, it was VHS for me. It was no option.

[15:42] Dave: The war had been won.

[15:43] Jeff: It was VHS. It was decided.

[15:44] Paul: So, uh for for those who don't even know what it is... uh, you remember what a video store is and...

[15:50] Dave: Uh, yeah. This is... the same part of my brain as phone books. So the video store was like you'd literally go in... Blockbuster was the big example. Video King was one by me. And you'd walk in and you'd... they... you'd get lucky maybe if they had the movie... the most recent movies and you'd pay for it and then you bring it back and pay because you didn't rewind it or because it was like many days late.

[16:11] Paul: I'll be... that has a lot of nostalgia for me.

[16:13] Dave: Yeah.

[16:14] Paul: It just feels like... I remember like Thursday or Friday nights going with my my mom, my brother, and it'd be like "cool let's go get a movie" or if you were with your friends you'd be like "let's go get a movie at the video store, let's see if such and such is in." And so I remember that being a big thing. Now everyone just takes it for granted 'cause it's like...

[16:33] Dave: Oh my gosh. What do you want to watch? I don't know. What do you want to watch?

[16:35] Jeff: Right. There's so many options now.

[16:36] Dave: It was like, you'd go in and be like "I want to get the new Batman movie" you know 1989. And it wasn't there and you be like "Okay. Well what's plan B?" "Oh no! What's plan C?" Because... because other people beat you there.

[16:45] Paul: Right. Yeah. Or you would plan ahead like it'd be an event. Like it'd be like "Guys I just got the movie!" "Oh yeah!" And then... yeah so... um, we went there. So Betamax um, when it first started they had... people were buying Betamax uh... recorders, Betamax players and obviously same with uh VHS, right? And um, so there was an agreement made by Sony and uh VHS that said "why don't we target the pro market and you target the consumer market?" So that's why what you saw is at at one point you had both of them and depending on the store you were in, the player you had, you had to... like you were limited.

[17:34] Dave: You know what the worst is? I... now I have... I now have this memory of like getting the VHS and getting home and realizing it was Beta and I couldn't play it. And I thought I was... I was like "Oh my god I can't believe I got... I got the... the new Batman movie!" And I got home and it was Beta and I was like "Oh! What have I done?"

[17:49] Paul: Yes. So luckily that that kind of worked itself out. So obviously...

[17:54] Jeff: Well what was the... did you guys see a difference? So if you had a Beta... I heard... 'cause what I... when I did research, Beta looked better, sounded better, but VHS was cheaper... did you guys see a difference? When you're watching this could you tell a difference between Beta and VHS?

[18:09] Dave: I still can't.

[18:10] Paul: I have no idea. I don't have reference.

[18:11] Paul: I don't remember... I didn't... I didn't look that closely at the time. But obviously I think they evolved because I remember doing um, Beta edits and the Beta... the the Beta cam decks were much higher quality once we started using those um, in production. Not in...

[18:31] Jeff: Like the consumer ones to me were pretty even.

[18:34] Paul: Um, so VHS won out for consumers. Um, and then from there what we did is for the static uh cameras, we went from film and we started getting into digital cameras. So um, I think this is where Kodak drops the ball, right? Kodak...

[18:52] Dave: And it's funny...

[18:53] Paul: They felt the quality, the the... um, just everything about the digital camera just didn't make sense. There was no competition for them. Or they didn't feel it was at the time. And it was interesting because I was like "But in my head I'm like, but this is gonna get better. This is going to get smaller."

[19:14] Dave: Is is this maybe one of the first cases where... I mean right now we can look and we talk about this about AI... today is the the worst it'll ever be. But we didn't always know that about technology. And computers...

[19:26] Paul: Well you know I think that it falls back on the ex... I think Kodak and Xerox ran into the same thing. They dominated an industry and they felt that there was no alternative. I mean...

[19:39] Dave: Yeah, it's the curse of knowledge.

[19:40] Paul: Yeah, it's like why... you know Xerox owned Xerox PARC in Palo Alto which created uh, most of the technology we have today. And they just let it go out so there it... it formed all of these other companies. And we can talk about that in another podcast. But all they thought about is "we make copiers." And so "why would these computer things... there's no need for it. We don't need fonts." Oh well Adobe started. "We don't need computers to talk to each other." Oh, 3Com started. You know. Um, "oh, we don't need user interfaces." Oh, Apple and Microsoft took those and created UIs and mice...

[20:18] Dave: How many times do you have to drop the ball before... they were like "Oh well we make... we have these copiers and we make billions from these copiers. What is all this other stuff?"

[20:25] Dave: And I mean you could make the argument though if you know your core competency... often times companies collapse because they they don't know their core competency and and fall... I mean ultimately that was their demise anyhow. Um, they just didn't have the vision. But I could see like if you're in film and you've been in the industry for 80 years and then you look at the first digital photo and you're like [scoff noise] "that that's one percent as good as anything that we've we can do on these exposures." Uh, not recognizing the the down downstream effects of that.

[20:54] Paul: Right. And so I think that, you know, it's one of those uh, insights that I think uh, you you can think about, you know, is that that was a pivotal point for Kodak that they should have really been doing that research and not just resting on their laurels and saying "film is the best, nothing will take replace it," right? Um, so from film we went uh, or from that we went to digital. And obviously digital grew. Um, and in video... in the video world, the same thing happened, right? Um, we started getting uh, into from film to the VHS to Beta, and then we started uh, getting into digital as well.

[21:35] Dave: Oh yes.

[21:36] Paul: But then there was a bunch of things that were wrong with that with all the different card configurations and formats. Uh, do you want to talk about that a little bit on uh...

[21:46] Jeff: Yeah. Sure. I mean what it came down to professionally... so by that by that point I'm at News 8.

[21:52] Dave: Okay what what... like can you anchor us in a year or a decade?

[21:55] Jeff: Yeah yeah. So I graduated, got my Bachelors in 2007. And that fall... so I graduated over the summer and then I started working at News 8 in September. So this is 2007. What really was the the trip up, or the thing that really made it difficult to work digitally, was computer computing power. You know, having a computer that's powerful enough to do even just like basic stuff. Because I work... News 8 in Rochester is the CBS affiliate, so it's the CBS station in Rochester. And we were shooting... I think we were the first station to shoot digitally. We had these Panasonic camcor... cameras that had P2 cards.

[22:31] Dave: What's a P2 card?

[22:32] Jeff: It's a giant... basically a PCI Express... was the giant card slot that on the side of a computer on a computer... huge ex... yeah it could be for multiple many... kind of like a USB thing.

[22:42] Dave: But it was big.

[22:43] Jeff: But it was large and and it's died. It it died. But anyway that was our digital card. And um, it was the... it's crazy to say... they gave us each four gig car... two four gig cards. And that held 16 minutes each.

[23:02] Dave: Whoa.

[23:03] Jeff: So you went from Beta... not Beta, I can't remember... was Quarter Inch. Quarter Inch tape, which is a giant tape that could hold hours and hours and hours and hours... to... I had a little more than 45 minutes basically a day.

[23:18] Dave: Did that make you more circumspect with what you were filming?

[23:20] Jeff: Oh yeah I had to be very... okay I I know I have to... but I will say tech... a piece of technology that doesn't isn't used as... it's still in some of the cameras... was pre-roll. So if I was shooting like basketball, let's say. Like you just... if you're recording you just record and then you just get the whole game and then you just have to find the the scores or the baskets or whatever. Where if I had pre-roll, which means if I... the camera's recording all the time... every whatever I set the interval to, 5 seconds 3 seconds or whatever... so when a basket is made, I hit record. So it got 3 seconds back or 5 seconds back or whatever. So it was amazing to just like "Oh I'm not running... filling up the card you know all the time." I got this really cool thing... basket like I said sports is a really good example of why this is good.

[24:05] Dave: Because otherwise you would miss it.

[24:06] Jeff: Otherwise yeah, otherwise I'd run out. I'd run out.

[24:08] Dave: I do like this idea of the technology kind of informing how you work. And then this pre-roll thing came out of the way like probably the demand that people in your situation had like "Well I can't record the entire game."

[24:18] Jeff: Oh yeah. And the cards were... I looked it up at the time... $1,500.

[24:23] Dave: Oh wow.

[24:24] Jeff: For one 4 gig card. And the chief photographer had an 8 gig and we were like "Oooooh" we were like "Oh my god!"

[24:31] Dave: Now we're talking terabytes but...

[24:33] Jeff: Oh gosh yeah yeah. But anyway the what was the trick at the time was were computers really. It was it was you know... we're talking standard definition which is really technical but old school analog video. Standard definition not widescreen just standard def. Those computers were chugging...

[24:50] Dave: Yeah.

[24:50] Jeff: ...to get through that footage.

[24:51] Paul: Well and you know, it's also... we alluded to this before we started recording but the whole process of shooting and then bringing it into a system to edit—a non-linear editing system on a computer—um, you know back in the day with the film we were actually cutting and taping and re-spooling. And then we got into the VHS or the the tape editing and you'd have to do um, a master deck and then you would be recording to it and then take it out and then record to it and we'd have all these decks and it'd be all timed out by time code and it would just like record to that one tape. Um, but then when we started getting into comp... the computers, then you had to take that content and somehow get it on the computer.

[25:44] Dave: Oh my gosh.

[25:45] Paul: And there was all these different configurations. It was very expensive...

[25:48] Jeff: Oh yeah. Oh and it was these these huge racks of converters and um man...

[25:54] Paul: Yeah.

[25:55] Jeff: It's a miracle... it really was a miracle... if you like how I don't know how exactly the film, the physical thing, made it into the computer, but I'm glad it it's there.

[26:04] Dave: So Jeff would you say that by today's standards like knowing what you know about like your workflow today, have you just traded and swapped one problem for another? Like it's probably a lot quicker to transfer the data and everything but like what problems have emerged that wouldn't have emerged back then? Like you know what I'm saying? Is it easier now? Or is it different hard?

[26:22] Jeff: It's different... it's harder in the sense that it's so easy that people are lazy. I would say.

[26:29] Dave: Oh.

[26:29] Jeff: I would say people... users are are lazy. I'm not specifically talking about our students here at the college but it's just like it's so easy to do now. You know it's like "Oh I lost my card" or whatever. It's "Oh I you know... well did you put your footage on our server?" "Like oh yeah." "Like okay well you still have all your footage then. You don't need the card anymore." It's like "Here's the tape. I have the tape. It is the only copy of this tape we have. Don't lose it."

[26:56] Dave: Don't lose it. Don't drop it. Don't do anything to it.

[26:59] Jeff: But is there also... so now that we don't have pre-roll... I mean you might have like 10 cameras on a basketball game from different angles that are all running all the time so now you have...

[27:07] Jeff: Well see now it's kind of like "Do you want... do you... because then maybe I'm getting if I... I want to shoot the whole thing 'cause maybe there's a player that didn't do anything, that didn't score a point, that maybe we want to get a shot of later for something that they did eventually. Because the pre-roll was great, I have exactly what I need, I didn't take up that much space, but that's all I have.

[27:26] Dave: Yeah.

[27:26] Jeff: Now I can't play with anything else. I have no... I can't shoot anything else. I can't do anyth— does that make sense? I can't do... I can't get extra footage for of anything else.

[27:35] Dave: Just 'cause I have no no space.

[27:36] Jeff: But to answer your question, it's so easy now that it's... they're just like "Oh well it's only going to take me two seconds to to upload the footage. I'll I'll edit more later. I'll edit later." Like we used to take... I hate to be like "Oh back in my day" when I was a student here, we were editing into the night. Like early morning late hours. Like you don't have to do that anymore.

[28:01] Paul: Yeah. It used to be a more thought out process because you really had to figure out "Okay, now I gotta take this this footage into this and then I gotta process it and then I gotta edit it." And it's really interesting the whole dynamics of um, the way you had to think about shooting versus now... um, you know the digital cameras have gotten better. We've almost standardized it. Now we used to have all these different CompactFlash...

[28:30] Dave: Yeah.

[28:30] Paul: ...uh Sony... different different formats. So different devices had different formats and now the pretty much the standard is uh, the SD card.

[28:39] Jeff: SD card.

[28:39] Paul: Um, and uh those have uh... those are memory cards and the memory cards now go from like 128 megabytes to like 5 terabytes. I mean it's crazy how much storage is in these devices.

[28:54] Jeff: And that $1,500 4 gig P2 card... I can get 30 cents now? I don't even know if I could buy a 4 gig card like at Walmart or Best Buy. I don't even know if they... 'cause that's so small.

[29:05] Dave: And just putting that in perspective so... what's a movie? If I watch a movie on Netflix is that 2 gigs? 20 gigs?

[29:10] Jeff: Uh, if it's a... okay. So 4K like Ultra HD like uh 4K you know... uh I would say that's probably 50 gigs.

[29:19] Dave: Okay. But I... generally if I just have standard definition or like HD like I don't have any of the... I don't have a 4K TV... is that 10 gigs?

[29:27] Jeff: Well if you are you... are we talking about you're streaming it? Like you're watching it on Netflix?

[29:31] Dave: I guess just... I'm just curious. I I just need to know what 10 gigs gets me today.

[29:35] Jeff: Oh of like storage? Uh 10 gigs... I would say a couple of standard def movies.

[29:41] Dave: Okay so gig an hour... gig and a half an hour.

[29:43] Jeff: Yeah sure. Yeah. Like DVD quali— I would say when I say standard like a DVD like DVD quality.

[29:48] Dave: Okay. Cool cool cool. I do... I do think that... I think hard about technology in the history of it and it seems to me that film has a durability that a lot of other technologies don't. And there's always been... I know even at RIT, I don't know if they still have like a a film developing major, but for years and years well past when you thought they would have gotten rid of it, they still had it. And I mean we live by the George Eastman Museum which certainly celebrates it. And Rochester is now home to... uh we we have an IMAX movie I think over in Gates, but a movie theater, but they are upgrading to get the 70 millimeter projection. We will be one of only 20, 25 true IMAX theaters in the nation.

[30:29] Paul: So and again 70 millimeter is just the size of the film again. So it's huge.

[30:33] Dave: It's like twice as big.

[30:34] Paul: Yeah so it I think they process it instead of vertically, horizontally...

[30:38] Dave: Yeah I've seen those spools. Because they're so heavy.

[30:41] Dave: Uh and their... it's timed to be done with when the new Christopher Nolan movie comes out 'cause he loves filming in like... in film first of all. And I saw Oppenheimer in film and then the next day I saw it at a regular like 4K projection theater and you could tell the difference. I couldn't, but people said they could.

[30:59] Paul: I... you know, I used to work for a production company and the uh the director of photography was a big film buff so we shot all the animation in 35 millimeter film. And I in contrast when I was at MTV we were shooting with video directly to the computer. And to give you a an idea of the difference in in the production, we were doing weekly episodes of um Celebrity Deathmatch at MTV, which is a stop motion animation. You guys can go look it up if you don't know what it is. Um, but uh they were... we were able to shoot and edit almost instantly. They were able to preview their animations instantly and it was all you know in the timeline of the editor like we had the storyboards in there so they knew the duration. Everything was right there. In contrast we had a different system, it was called a Lunchbox, that gave us a preview of the animation and it was just a video low res preview of the animation and we shot with film. Okay? Then our director or and our director of photography had to go to New York City or Miami to process...

[32:12] Dave: Whoa. Like had to get on a plane with suitcases full of...

[32:15] Paul: With film and and then they would bring it back and then you know what we did? We digitized it anyway! And we edited it on a computer! And but that whole process you know I it was funny because they were saying the same thing. He was so adamant that the quality... and rightfully so at the time... the film was higher quality. But now you know I think about look at... the video cameras are now on our phones. The cameras themselves are now on our phones. And the quality on those are 4K. And they're you know uh Apple always um touts on their commercials that you could shoot a full film using one of their devices, their Max cameras right? Um so we're getting into this realm to your point it's so easy you just pick up your phone and you can start shooting. And so we're seeing this evolution of you can edit on your phone now.

[33:12] Dave: Yeah.

[33:12] Paul: You know there's no there's no ingestion, there's no like... it's just you can process right away. And you can post and distribute right away! Whereas before you had a an edit like I'll call it a um a wall that you had to say "Okay someone has to look this over, someone has to approve it, and then it has to get pushed up to broadcast or it has to get pushed to somewhere." Now anybody can just shoot and that can get people in trouble too right? They can shoot, edit, post and and you know it's all out there.

[33:43] Dave: There's no vetting. There's no no checks and balances.

[33:46] Dave: Yeah I'm going through my camera roll right now. I have like 75,000 photos and videos. So my question to you guys because you're the experts... how do people know what to get when they're getting either a phone or a camera or or like a video camera or a point and shoot?

[34:00] Paul: I'll let you go Jeff and then I can uh...

[34:02] Jeff: I think it what I always say is "Well what do you want to do with it? What's your goal? Like what's your... what do you want to use this for?" And "How much do you want to spend?" It's usually what I say.

[34:14] Dave: All right. Uh so I imagine the needs... I mean for me I because I teach online I want a good camera for recording when I'm you know in my studio, my my basement, and doing instructional videos. But a lot of other people are like "Well I go on vacation I want to take pictures and videos of nature." So you... if anyone has a question they can just contact you? Is what you're saying?

[34:31] Jeff: Right. Yeah.

[34:32] Dave: Okay.

[34:32] Jeff: The first thing I would say in that case, I'd say "Well what phone do you have? What's your phone?"

[34:36] Dave: Our phone's generally good enough?

[34:38] Jeff: Oh yeah.

[34:38] Dave: Okay.

[34:39] Jeff: Yeah.

[34:39] Paul: I and I think that to to your point understanding what you need. So for instance uh we're very fortunate that we have tons of camera types right? And um the school and Jeff is very understanding of like you know we'll we'll give um a situation like a a camera pr— a video project to a student let's say. And um you know in talking with the students they give us feedback and we're like "Oh you know what? We we can come up with a solution for that." So one of the things that came up was like "You know Paul I wanted my video to be so much better but I'm the only one like I'm I'm filming and I'm by myself and um so I had to keep the camera static no one was around to help me like film." So then you know in talking with Jeff, Jeff came up with two solutions. Do you want to talk about those two solutions for...

[35:25] Jeff: Yeah so basically the specific project was they were riding a horse. Right? And they wanted the they wanted it to be followed. They wanted to be followed. And it's like "Okay well do you have someone there that can move the camera?" And they're like "Well no." And it's like "Okay so maybe what you could do is you shoot with a normal camera like a DSLR or a mirrorless camera. You shoot it. You pass it. And then you turn the camera... you you pan over to the other side and then you ride past it again. So you edit it." Right that's one way to do it. Or because they have uh a lot of these gimbals—they're they're gimbals is basically a motorized or uh a controlled device that can um uh stabilize your camera or your lens. Get gimbal right? And uh specifically the one that we ended up buying was a DJI Osmo 3. And what it can do is if you select you know on this little tiny screen that it gives you, you can tap on the subject...

[36:23] Dave: Like the horse.

[36:24] Jeff: Yeah the horse. And hop on the horse and it'll follow the horse.

[36:28] Dave: Automatically?

[36:28] Jeff: Automatically.

[36:29] Dave: Oh my gosh.

[36:29] Jeff: So then it can track.

[36:30] Dave: How much does that cost?

[36:31] Jeff: Couple hundred bucks.

[36:32] Dave: Not much?

[36:33] Jeff: It was just a gimbal. And I was like "This is great." And then we got something where it's like "Okay but this is still requiring a a DSLR or mirrorless camera that we would then put on it. Can we get something smaller?"

[36:44] Jeff: That's the Osmo. Yeah yeah. Oh yeah I remember now. We we did do two things. The Osmo was the one that's basically like a one person show. The other one you could put a camera on it and it has a um a sensor on there so you can get a higher quality image uh third party camera and it and you can connect... it'll talk to the camera and uh communicate with the camera and it'll follow you that way.

[37:05] Paul: And and this with this with that it pivots too or tilts.

[37:09] Jeff: Tilts. Yeah.

[37:09] Paul: So I could go I was able to like go up and down it was like vrt vrt.

[37:12] Dave: Oh my gosh.

[37:13] Paul: So you know the advancements are so great...

[37:15] Dave: And drones. Like I've seen your drone work before too.

[37:17] Paul: So I there's a lot out there but I think if you're interested in this stuff you really need to evaluate what you're using it for. So in your case for instance if you were filming yourself I would say the uh the little...

[37:28] Jeff: Osmo.

[37:28] Paul: ...the Osmo would be perfect 'cause it's a very small device, it's all self-contained, you click it, you can see a preview of it, and then you can move around and it would record and edit you and um it would it would do what you'd want it to do. Now if you were looking for something to shoot um stills on and everything else then you know you have to evaluate those factors as well.

[37:50] Dave: Is there a course at this college where someone can go and learn all this stuff?

[37:54] Paul: Yeah. We're there's multiple. So we have uh digital photography courses here. Um...

[37:58] Dave: Does that include video?

[37:59] Paul: We have so we have video production as well. So we have um motion design... so there's lots of different courses you can take if you're looking at a um a specific interest. Uh you could definitely go to www.flcc.edu and obviously uh look up the courses. So that's all the time we have today. Jeff I want to thank you for uh being our guest. Our very first guest here.

[38:23] Jeff: Yeah.

[38:23] Paul: So um this is going to set up uh for future guests as well. And uh I'm Paul Engin.

[38:29] Dave: I'm Dave Ghidiu. And if you enjoyed today's conversation be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And let's uh let's be careful out there folks.

[38:37] Paul: And share it with a friend or a colleague. Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and thanks for looking through The Immersive Lens with us.

[38:46] Outro Voiceover: This episode was engineered by Hugh Laird. Recorded at Finger Lakes Community College Podcast Studios located in beautiful Canandaigua, New York in the heart of the Finger Lakes region. Offering more than 55 degrees, certificate, micro-credentials, and workforce training programs. Thank you to Public Relations and Communications, Marketing, and the FLX AI Hub. Eager to delve into passion? Discover exciting immersive opportunities at www.flcc.edu. As part of our mission at FLCC we are committed to making education accessible, innovative, and aligned with the needs of both students and employers. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official position of Finger Lakes Community College. Music by Den from Pixabay. This is The Immersive Lens.

[39:48] Paul: You know you didn't say... you didn't make a a bust about the elephant in the room. You you should have been like "Wha— thanks a lot Paul!"

[39:54] Jeff: No. I'll do it right now. I'll do it right now.

[39:56] Jeff: Just back it up. Just put this... just put this bit in there.

[39:58] Jeff: Yeah put this bit in there.

[39:59] Jeff: Is it 'cause I'm wearing a gray... is it 'cause I'm wearing a gray... am I an elephant?

[40:02] Paul: That's right. There. Put that in.

[40:04] Paul: There we go. All right.


full-width